CAQ - Forum



Repost of (Deleted) Remnant-Online Forum Discussion


The following is a repost of a discussion on the NJK Project that was resume on September 19, 2010. Self-evidently, those opposing the Biblical basis of the Project, not able to explain why they did not want to do all that they can do to help the people in need, opted to delete their entire “World Economies” forum thread?!? and also ban me from the forum. (No need of stones today when you have a delete button! (cf. e.g., John 8:59)).
 So this is a repost from my own private records to that post while I was responding to it. Their comments are in bold, my replies are not. (Not expecting the forum thread to be even completely deleted, a image copy of it was not made, and this post of my response drafts from a wordprocessor is not an exact copy of all that was said on this thread, but the main elements of this discussion have been conserved and here reproduced.)
                                   
Re: World Economies
The NJK Project has created some concern for us in that some think we have supported it because of the posts in this thread. If one were to read the topic it would be impossible to come to that conclusion. What has been represented by NJK is quite the opposite of what has been presented in this thread by me and others. I see no agreement in any way by anyone with the NJK Project. Here are two posts that I made that are diametrically opposed to the principles put forth by NJK.
                       
Quote from: Richard Myers on January 07, 2002, 10:40:00 PM
We have been  given an example of a national economy in the Bible that was established by God. We may express our opinions and feelings, but we must go to the Bible directly for information on the subject. We may look at Israel of OLD  and establish some  very important points in our attempt to merge Biblical principle with a national economy.
                                                                                                                                               
I need to clarify something just a wee bit. When I said U.S. capitalism, some may be as confused as I am.    In the U.S. there is no  system of capitalism that we can call "U.S. capitalism" (we have moved to some very socialistic programs in the last 40 years).   But,  there has been established over the life of the country some economic principles that many will recognize as "American". So, with this wide open defining of our subject let me proceed with what I believe is the case. 
                                   
The United States was established upon principles found in Scripture and raised up and protected and blessed by God. There was to be freedom in this new country much different than what was seen in the rest of the world. The economy was not socialistic, but rather a free economy and when England began imposing taxes upon her colony there was an uprising. It was a "protestant" nation and dead set against kingly or popish power. In the forming of the federal government the powers were strictly limited to protect the freedoms of the states which gave more power to the people. The idea that the state would take over individual responsibility was not an option. The Bible says that if a man will not work he should not eat.
The churches had the responsibility to provide for those who were in need of help. This is a Biblical mandate. Of course the churches did not do as God ordained and the freedoms that existed in the new country were abused by big business. In a free economy, there is an inherent danger that a business will become so successful that it can through a number of practices stifle competition. This was seen and steps were taken to limit the monopolistic powers of large corporations. Anti-trust laws were enacted to protect the free enterprise system.(cont)
           
Re: World Economies
Reply #43 on: September 19, 2010, 10:51:59 PM
Quote
Quote from: Richard Myers on January 07, 2002, 10:43:00 PM
In this world of selfishness there will always be abuses, but in attempting to provide an economic system that would pattern itself after the Bible model, I find the U.S. coming pretty close when the country enacted the anti-trust laws and had a very minimal taxation policy. As close as could be expected in a system that was not a theocracy.
Since the churches failed to provide for the necessities of those who suffered misfortune as commanded, the country should step in in some manner. And, I believe this was the case many years ago. In commenting on the situation we have today, it is much more "socialistic" and as such violates the Biblical principle of personal responsibility. It is at the same time more "capitalistic" than previously in that the anti-trust laws have been violated and there is an allowance for huge corporations to swallow up smaller ones. The free enterprise system is in great danger on both fronts. Socialism is a great burden on small and new businesses and the unregulated capitalism makes it very difficult for old and new businesses to compete.
In the Israelite economy of old, I see no limitation on earned income or on inherited assets. There were some "taxes" to be paid based upon percentage of income. The system allowed for those who squandered their inheritance to reap what they had sown. No government program to the rescue, but.....God in His wisdom recognized that the means of production needed to stay in the hands of the people; no in the hands of the family it had been originally given to. At the end of every fifty years the land was to go back to the original family that owned it. This was God's way of keeping the rich from getting richer and the poor from getting poorer in a "capitalistic" economy.                        
     
           
Re: World Economies                      
Reply #44 on: September 19, 2010, 10:58:40 PM
Quote
These quotes have been provided for those who have not taken the time to read the thread to understand what has been said. Freedom, both economic and religious are Biblical principles. If a man does not work, he does not eat. Of course we help those who cannot help themselves and we will give food to a starving man. But the Bible does not support socialism. It is inherently wrong. If a person wishes to give their goods to the poor, then God would have them do it voluntarily, not at the dictate of the state. Taxation is not contrary to Biblical principle when done with restraint to provide necessary services and to provide help to the afflicted that the fallen churches have not provided. This is the argument I have put forward and it does not in any way support the NJK Project. While this is a private forum and the posts here are copyrighted, my statement may be reprinted as long as it is done so from beginning to end.         


Hello Richard Myers,
In all sincerity and solemn seriousness, as you evidently do not actually understand the truth on the pure and Godly communistic system (which does not knee-jerkedly, nor solely mean 20th century, Soviet-style, State-controlled, Stalinistic Communism, as most “red-herringly” want it to), nor see the Biblical Foundations/Principles upon which my project is built upon, then I can understand your endeavor to try, though quite futilely, “distance” yourself from the [url=http://www.njkproject.info]NJK Project[/url]. However, and quite typically enough, as seen e.g. in [url=http://www.njkproject.info/njk/forums/msdaol.html]this SDA Forum thread[/url] (reposted on my site) where such issues were discussed in some greater depth, (See also [url=http://njkproject.blogspot.com/2009/11/sealing-of-gods-people-part-2-ezekiel-9.html]this blog page[/url] of mine. Many other of my related [url=http://njkproject.blogspot.com]blog’s posts[/url] also incorporatively deal with this topic.), you have done the typical unbiblical double talk.
First of all, you are, as stated already, actually, solely comparing “U.S. Capitalism” with Soviet-style Communism and not the Biblical System. When someone [u]became poor[/u] in Israel, as all of the national wealth was initially distributed by the leaders in Israel (i.e., “the State”) according to the actual, tangible need, i.e., household size (Num 26:52-56), then other were obligated to come to their help, and that aided person was then obligated to do all they could in the remaining years of that sabbatical cycle to repay in full this aid, and that of course without the Capitalistic tenet and driving incentive of profit or interest (see e.g., Deut 15:1-18).
Secondly, when as you rightly say that ‘the churches in early America did not meet the needs of the poor as mandated in the Bible, resulting in the State stepping in’ most prominently during and after the Great Depression, it was solely because the American Christians were just being ‘good Capitalists’ and as you say not ‘helping to feed those who would not work.’ In my project, I make no claim of ‘eating without working’, quite to the contrary. Not working, or properly fulfilling your freely chosen duties and responsibilities, will be a most serious crime in the NJK as it will amount to theft, because one would still be enjoying the full benefits of the NJK without doing their due part.
Of course in your attempt to justify and reconcile Capitalism or even the capitalistic aspects of a Mixed Economy and the Bible, you not only misstate what the OT actually taught, but completely ignore the teachings of Christ (including parables), the NT example of the Spirit-led Church (e.g. Acts 2:43-45; 4:32-37) and Paul’s beliefs and instructions, based upon God’s own doing in the OT (2 Cor 8:7-15), not to mention the imperatives of the SOP as seen in e.g., the compilation book [i]Welfare Ministry[/i]. But that is always what occurs when one reads the Bible with a Capitalistic mindset. I do not have the time to go through this conversation again in detail however see my cite repost above and my blog post and you’ll understand what the Bible actually teaches in regards to Socio-economics.
You claim that the American colonies rebelled when England taxed them and that because they did not want to be under kingly or popish power. History clearly records otherwise. The American colonies were faithfully under the King of England’s power (popery power was not even an issue as England had long ago established its own National Church and rejected the power of the Catholic Church and Popes). It was also only because the King of England refused to let the Colonies be represented in the government of England that they stood up against this “taxation without representation.”
Also passing anti-trust laws to force businesses to compete is socialism and not capitalism. It is the equivalence of forcing a person to share their wealth once they reach a certain ceiling. Policies like Patent and Copyright expirations are also socialistic, as they force the owner of the invention, concept and idea to freely lose the exclusive right to it and freely share it with others who did nothing to help obtain it. For that matter taxes based upon the percentage of one’s wealth/income is also purely socialistic, even communistic, as a person paying $3,000,000 in taxes drives on the same quality of roads and obtains the same civic and social services as the person paying e.g., $3000, or even nothing at all.
Indeed your obliviously duplicitous responses in a vain attempt to defend Capitalism is all too typical, yet still quite shocking to here being said by SDA’s. As already shown in my writings on this issue in my website, blog, forum discussion there is nothing Biblical about Capitalism. I strongly recommend studying what the Bible actually teaches on this topic. Also my Project is not State-centered/controlled (as Soviet-style communism) and obviously not Individualistic (as Capitalism), but Others-concerned as the Bible teaches, and all of the production means will be defaultly publicly administered, with each NJK Citizen having as an unalienable right, an equal “share” in all of the production establishments (a.k.a. companies/business) of the NJK. See [url=http://www.njkproject.info]my website[/url] for much more.
Brother N,  we allow discussion with those whom we disagree. We do not allow teaching that is contrary to truth. We are happy to hear some of your thoughts on various economic systems, but we will not allow you to use our fellowship as a platform to teach your thoughts or to give influence to your internet sites. I would be surprised if you have support from any group within the church or without.
You failed to address the Biblical principle which condemns socialism.     Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you: Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us. For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.  For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.  Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread. 2 Thess 3:8-12.
Your thoughts are contrary to this: "my Project is not State-centered/controlled (as Soviet-style communism) and obviously not Individualistic (as Capitalism), but Others-concerned as the Bible teaches, and all of the production means will be defaultly publicly administered, with each NJK Citizen having as an unalienable right, an equal “share” in all of the production establishments (a.k.a. companies/business)..."
Free enterprise is based upon Protestant principles. Socialism is based upon the Catholic teaching of "community".  You seem to have a strong distaste for "individual" liberty and responsibility. This topic was not established to justify socialism, but to examine the world economies in the light of Bible truth. The system set up by God for Israel is the best example we have of how a national economic system ought to function. There are no theocracies today and God does not want any. So, there are differences today. But, in studying the Jewish economy as established by God, there is much we can learn. It was basicly a "free enterprise" economy. The farmer, shop owner, tent maker, all could work as many hours as they wanted and set their own prices and did not share equally with all others, working or not. They paid several tithes to help provide for those who could not work. But, those who could work and did not work, were not to eat. This is Biblical principle.
Please do  not reference your project. It is off topic. You may inquire about what is being taught and may present other ideas on the topic of existing world economic systems.
For our members information, we have modified your user name to reflect our request of using names rather than handles and to remove the continual ad for your project.  Your new user name is Nathan K.  If you have something better, let me know and we will accommodate you.
September 20, 2010
Brother N,  we allow discussion with those whom we disagree. We do not allow teaching that is contrary to truth.
-Richard Myers. As my username is evidently such a threat to your forum, then I would like to switch it to Northy instead of your “Nathan K”(!??).
-I have referenced what the Bible teaches and do not consider it Biblical to limit my Christian experience to the base failings of men. If that is your Spiritual-feeble preference than, in all seriousness, God Help You! You fool yourself to think you are a Biblical Christian. You are nothing more than a “worldly” professor of Christianity. Obviously doing what is necessary, as the NT Church to meet the needs of our neighbor, which as Jesus said was anyone who was in need means absolutely nothing to you. All that so you can survive in your skewed and eveil economic system. Good Luck!
-My links to my other writings were not for “publicity” reasons but for references to other sites and SDA Forums where I had already discussed these topics in detail, so that I would not have to consume my time again responding over the same, Capitalistic-typical objections.
-Whether anyone willingly or not supports the project it will eventually get completely financed and done, indeed in one of any four current endeavors or another. The time that this will take is the only variable ranging from as quickly as tomorrow to a few more years. Really the only thing that is holding this financing back is the Biblical illiteracy and unbiblicalness of the Church and other Christians, among other oblivious and/or indifferently held deficiencies. Also, as David said to the cowering armies of Israel, in the hundreds of millions of suffering and dying people globally, “Is there not a cause”?! And as it mindless goes in Capitalism, as long as one can afford to pay the price any, lawful product and service will be supplied and provided.
-I did address the ‘Biblical principle which you think condemns socialism’. In your capitalistic mindset, you are not allowed to see it. It is funny how you only hold one to your skewed understanding of that verse vs. the many other texts in the Bible that teach the principles of pure socialism, including Paul himself. Building a teaching on one verse is far from “truth”. Also you come to your view on that text through eisogesis, i.e., isolatively, understanding it from a 20th century capitalistic mindset.
-The problem with socialism/communism that has existed in the world is that, it was not purely socialist, but in many practising ways, such as price-setting, wage-setting, work obtainment, it used principles of free-market capitalism. The two are not compatible and that is why this mixture fails. A socialist economy can exist where work load is also share equally so as there is no unemployment, nor would people then not have some work to do. Because when there is only work for two and 4 people need that job then each person would work for 4 hours/work day each instead of two working for 8 and 2 being unemployed needing social aid. Of course that would cause wages to be halved and obviously that is not feasible in a Capitalistic economy because the person controlling a capital won’t want to correspondingly halve his prices. So that is why it is preferred in a Capitalistic economy that some work so that these subjectively set prices can be met and never recede. So in this why my economic view of biblical (= needs based, resource sharing, socialism harmonizes perfectly with Paul’s counsel, because no one will be faulted for not working when there are no jobs available (or else there would not even be unemployment) as
there will always be a job, or a share of a job for all to do.
-It is by having a default, equal share in all businesses that such work sharing can be done and assured. Because no matter how much your work hours are reduced because you are sharing it with someone else, your living conditions will not be reduced. As long as you fulfill your share, you are entitled to the production. In this way is also the incentive because when everyone does their work properly, then everyone equally benefits from this. Also the more complex and demanding a job, as it can, especially now, be scientifically measured, the more those tasks can be shared by more people, and through the public administration of this economy, this additional sharing would be democratically approved. The whole thing is like a company’s relation with its shareholders.
-I do not consider either “Protestant principles” or “Catholic teaching” for my Biblical Understanding, I go only by what the Bible teaches. By your determination for truth here, you might as well declare “dying and immediately going to Heaven”,”Eternal Hellfire” and “Sunday sacredness” truth because these are also the teaching of most Protestants.
- When "individual" liberty and responsibility one focuses on oneself as it is necessary for Capitalism to exist then it becomes unbiblical. The teachings of Jesus, as well as teachings elsewhere in the Bible completely condemned the inevitable and inherent selfish, greedy, and indifferent view. Take away all of the policies used in Capitalism that force one to restrict their freedom to care and indirectly be responsible for others, (e.g., paying taxes for Social Programs) and you will fully see what this then ‘Pure Capitalistic "individual" liberty and responsibility’ is really all about and the anarchy and societal self-destruction it leads to.
-When God set up Israel as a nation, it was in a plentiful land. Yet that land was clearly shared among all people according to their tangible need. From the on everyone had their own mean of production. They live of their farm work, (no grocery stores then) and other living necessity labors. It is clear that if a capable person refused to do this manual work, no one was obligated to come to their aid, as they were not in aid. In our more complex world it is much more efficient to operate under a division of labour, yet the same principle of each on doing their equal or equivalent part can easily be maintained.
There does not need to be a theocracies for Christians to fully live according to Biblical principles. Not doing so, and that solely due to people’s greed and selfish, is only deciding to serve “Mammon” (Luke 16:13). Why can’t the 81% of Christians in First World Countries model a Biblical economy. Surely it is not so that the 19% of non-Christians can be greedy and selfish, and not worry about the rest of the world dying from preventable and treatable cause! No It is so that they can also live in this base way. So using the common, but red-herring defense that “there are no theocracies in the world,” as if one should only live, or seek to live, according to God’s principles when it is simple, popular and mandated by law with binding penalty, just betrays their non-convertedness and their worshipful view to the ‘master of wealth’. Let the corporate Church seek to live according to these Biblical principles and see if God let’s them fail or come up short in any way. If they faithfully follow these Biblical principles and they are ‘the tail rather than the head’ then not only should they then run back to Capitalism, but also do throw away your Bibles, because it either cannot be relied upon in socio-economic matters, is inferior to the tenets and principles of Capitalism, or is no longer relevant nor applicable today.
-Did you ask God if ‘He did not want a theocracy’. Israel was God’s perfect plan and they were to be both a spiritual and temporal blessing to the whole world. Had they remained faithful, there would surely be a National Israel of God today. Israel was only disbanded and Jerusalem destroyed solely because of the rebellion of those rebellious generations. Study your Bible carefully, including the NT, and you will see that God’s word, even from the OT and its prophecies regarding God’s Israel will not fail. (Isa 55:7-13). Indeed if you study the teachings of Jesus, you will see that He, preaching in a time of great social and economic, need, made the socialistic demands of the OT even more far-reaching. And this is indeed how the NT Church understood it. Also even in a National Israel, God always wanted His people to freely choose to live according to His perfect and enduring Biblical ways.
A Biblical socialistic system does not preclude free enterprise. In fact is expands it, because with people determining themselves what, and what quality of things will be produced, individuals do not have to fend for themselves in a trial and error way to see what the market wants. This client-side direction of production is then much more efficient. It also helps ideas get to the “market” faster and simpler, thus in turn readily creating more ideas.
-You’ll need to provide some Bible verse to substantiate your (manifestly 20th+ Century capitalistic view) for the preferences of workers in the Bible. I am sure, like anyone else, they did not want to work any longer than they had to. The same goes for price setting. Remember no interest, thus no inflation in the OT Economy. The Biblical goal of life is not ‘to make more money than needed’ or ‘work overtime’. The Godly goal is to enjoy life to its fullest. Through work load sharing each one can maintain a high quality of life and also have more leisure time, rather than non-workers getting this time.
-Where in the Bible is it said that tithing was to provide for people in need ?!? Tithing only provide for the sustenance of the Levites as they were to devote themselves to the work of the Sanctuary/Temple.
If you want to prove that Capitalism is Biblical, then produce more actual Bible references than your single misconstrued, isolated and eisogetical one.
September 20, 2010
NK;                
Just because there are socialistic aspects within the gov't in the US does not make them commendable. The more socialistic and communistic the gov't becomes the more oppressive it is. It takes away incentive to succeed and tempts one to be indifferent and lazy. It detracts from a creative spirit. It has been the invasion and strong implementation of socialism that is about to bring this country to its knees.      
Colporteur
                                                                                               
-Well think this through a little more. Since Capitalism did not have these socialistic principles before, even income taxes, then let’s take all of them out of society and the economy and see where we end up. (For the sake of time, I won’t explain all of these withdrawals, but hopefully you know how they socially work). No more Medicare, Medicaid, Socialized Healthcare. So when you get sick if you do not have the money you suffer and if it is the result, die. No Social Security, Unemployment Benefits, Public Education, State Universities, etcs., No Insurance of any type because, case in point, if you buy a $30,000 car today and also sign up for full insurance, if you total it two hours after driving out of the Insurance office, also causing $300,000 in propery damages, even with only having made the first payment on your policy, you will be giving another $30,000 car along with all property damages paid in full, obviously from the money given by other people, who therefore, socially came to you help when you were in need of it. The Federal Government needs $2.85+ Trillion dollars per year to operate, therefore each $300 million Americans must pay ca. $9,500+ a year in Federal Taxes, from Bill Gates to the homeless person on the corner. That’s Pure capitalism. Those who cannot afford this obviously will need to be restricted from enjoying the public services provided by those taxes. So more jails, paid by taxes. However with taxes socially paid according to one’s income, Bill Gates and the likes, will pay for those who can’t. However, just like buying shares in a company, since he pays more he should have an exclusive road paved in gold for him to drive to his favorite golf course. At least the street in front of his house. His tap water should come straight from the nearest natural spring, etc. But of course that is far from the capitalistic case. Returning to Capitalism, will only lead to the return of what caused the Stock Market Crash of 1929 and Great Depression. You cannot simply raise prices and wages or higher everyone in a capitalistic economy because that dilutes the actual value of the currency. And when people realize this the Stock Market Crashes. Of Course there then are no social measures to “stimulate the economy” and provide jobs for people so the economy remains in depression. Give tax cuts to businesses to employ people... oh wait, there are no taxes. So business owners only hire people if they need to. If it is going to cause deficit to their bottom line, and thus personal income, then they only do what is best for them. No government intervention to force them to tell them how they should, ‘for the good of society’ operate their private business. So then it is business owners who do the oppressing by only doing what is best for their individual bottom line.
-In terms of “incentive and creativity” one has to effectively think like a selfish, pain-or-pleasure’ animal to think that people can only be coin machine who will not provide ideas or services without a proper reward. I can’t and won’t do it for any “reward” including having my comments posted on this forum. Actually having to Biblically dumb myself down to this animalistic level is quite upsetting to me. I choose, even if alone, to wholly live by God’s ideal. Good luck with your Capitalistic view.
September 21, 2010
Northy, your "project" has no more validity now than it did when you first begin promoting it on another forum.  Jesus gave no command for the formation of these "utopian societies" that you are advocating.  It is clear from the NT that both Jesus and Paul expected Christians to live within the cultures and societies of the time, not go off and start an exclusive one.  What you are advocating sounds much like what the Essenes tried to do, and it resembles the exclusiveness of the Jews, which resulted in a mutual hatred between Jew and Gentile.  We are called to be salt and light within the area of our influence, in whatever country or subculture we find ourselves.  We are not called to go off and form a "pure" Christian society somewhere.  That would result in the same thing it always has:  a mindset of "us" and "them."  The gospel commission would never be fulfilled under those conditions.
The Pentecost model shows that the gospel can be spread quite rapidly in whatever culture we find ourselves.  It is the Holy Spirit that speeds it on, not the misguided plans of fallible man.  Our task is to ready ourselves to receive the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.  The effort to form "wholly Christian cities in locations throughout the globe" is doomed to failure because man is fallible, and the Lord is not in this work.  How can one witness to his neighbor when he abandons him to go off and live in a fantasy world?  He is not a watchman on the wall when he abandons his position.  He is no longer salt and light, but has left his neighbor in darkness.
                                   
Clearly Wally, you neither have read nor understand my Project nor recognize its Biblical basis. I do not have the time to restate what I have already written in detail on this elsewhere on the web and which can easily and simply be referenced. I would strongly suggest that you speak for yourself on this and don’t fool yourself into thinking that your thought are also God’s. If you think that “the Lord is not in this work” the you neither nor the Lord, nor are capable of discerning Biblical Truth. And, factually speaking, you will also be in for a great surprise, and that is not only in surprise to the Biblical validity of my project but also to your own Biblical and spiritual deficiency. And all that is simply because you all refuse to do all that you can do to help those in current vital need. All that you all typically care about is “waiting for the Latter Rain”. (I would refer you here to a online presentation that delve into the Biblical View on the subject of the Latter Rain, but that is a freedom that is barred in this forum.) Watch out for the Thunder, then Lightning Storm before! (But of course, you would have to understand these symbols of Revelation to get this. Let it be according to your desire!) You all correspondingly have all of the gifts that had to be supernaturally given, solely out of necessity, to the Disciples in the early Church. So what’s your excuse for your Evangelistic slowness?
You claim to be “the Salt of the Earth” however as Jesus also says in this statement,’ by thinking and acting like the world, especially in your worshipful and pervasive capitalistic ways, you all have just lost your savor and also your “light”. My project, as I know it to be Biblically intentioned and planned, will have much more of a “salting” impact that anything that this dysfunctional Church has ever done or will do. You want devotedly live by the base and unbiblical tenets of Capitalism, well you’ll also suffer it sure fate when it inevitably self-destructs or seeks to save itself by incongruently becoming 100% Socialist.
If you really want to disprove my project then try to disprove its deep and substantive Biblical Foundations. Mere subjective profession or solely your biased personal opinions at best.
September 21, 2010
2Ti 3:7, 9  Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth...But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men...
Sybil, You are going to have to actually explain to who you think this passage applies to, because from its exegetical context (2 Tim 3:1-9ff), which you all have to “proof-textly” as manifestly done here, ignore, it pointedly describes Capitalists today, most of which are professing Christians, even SDA’s. I never ceases to surprise me how you all have nothing from the Bible to back up your ‘Capitalism is Biblical’ dogma.
September 21, 2010
Northy - please do not further embarrass yourself with defense after defense that holds no water. We are not convinced.
What did Jesus say about those who could not be convinced, Northy? Something about "dust your feet" and move on to another town? You are embarrassing yourself here. I specifically prayed for you yesterday and will do so again today. You could have influence for the good but choose to disparage His church and build foundation upon foundation of nothing but sand.
Sybil, you can take this however it will self-justify you, but please don’t pray for me as, with your unbiblical and mindless capitalistic mindset, you do not know which throne before which you are bowing (4T 384-387).
Still no Biblical support for your view I see...
Northy;
What you seem to be describing sounds like mico managing for the good of all. The bottom line is that we are not robots to be stamped into the same pattern without free choice. This amounts to slavery. A slave will never work like a free person who is inspired to work. For Christianity and the gospel to work it must work from the principles of free choice. Your insultive chaffed tone only harmonizes with the attitude of cohersion.
    Christ and his second coming is at the door and the problem is way too big to fix. The Jehovah Witnesses think they are God's people to usher in a temporal kingdom. Don't fall into that trap. Even if your theories were correct, at this point they are like putting a bandaid on cancer. God has a mission to reach people spiritually before very soon everything crashes and burns. Throwing teaspons of water on the economic brush pile so it will not burn will not help anything and sounds like a counterfeit mission.
Northy, I hear the word "my " alot in your conversation. "My project" sounds like elitism with a preoccupation with who?
I also hear in essence "prove me wrong" alot. That also refers to "me." You have a disdain for "capitalism" as this word comes up in your posts continually. That is fine but seems like rather than preparing for the coming of Christ you are trying to live in paradise as a result of "my project." Aint gonna happen and if you are not careful you will miss out on the real paradise. Do you support the redistribution of wealth that Clinton and Obama have worked toward which amounts to putting everybody on the bottom accept for a few elite ?
Colporteur,
Amusing spurious and circular reasoning here. Obviously that is what is needed to validate your non-biblical stance. I thoroughly discuss these points elsewhere on the internet and again won’t waste my time to do so again here. Since I know the actual facts and answers here, that does not affect me at all.                 
Saving a life or 65+ million per year is not a band-aid solution. However all that you can see is your God of the economy and Capitalism and nothing beyond that.
The “me” “my” and “my project” are simply factual statements as this is indeed my project.
Clearly in your answers you only partly understand the Gospel and God’s expectation for His most blessed and privileged latest generation of Israel.
I do not support any redistribution of wealth in a society/economy that professes to be Capitalist. I would enjoy seeing them follow their capitalists belief to the end and see them jump off the cliff right after it does! My project does not involve a redistribution of wealth as everyone will start off being of equal and substantively high wealth.
There is a blessing to be had in this discussion about world economic systems. Let's leave Northy's ideas for a perfect economy out and discuss capitalism and socialism since they are the two basic systems in the world.  We see a mix of these two concepts in most countries, even China who remains Communist which is a nation ruled by force of arms.
A purely capitalistic economy is not what is being put forth by anyone here. We understand where it leads. It was not what the Jewish economy had under God's rule. What we believe is proper and a Biblical model is a "free enterprise" economy with constraints. It leaves man free to decide when, where, and how he will work. The constraints placed by on this system by God was designed to keep the wealthy from ending up with all the means of production. At the end of 50 years, the land returned to the family. The parents could not throw away the inheritance of the children. And the slaves were set free.  
A similar constraint is placed upon "free enterprise" in the United States.  There are taxes that keep the wealthy from ending up with all the land, gold, silver, and cattle. This is right. It is how the taxes are spent that creates a problem. There has been a move to a socialistic economy where men are paid if they are able to work and do not. This has gone against Bible principle and created a class of people who are dependent upon others when it need not be the case. And, they are controlled by others who think it their right to dictate how one is educated, medicated, housed, fed, and transported. It is Satanic. It is not Protestant by stretch of the imagination. It is the type of control one would expect in a papal system. There is no individual freedom. Initiative is destroyed and children are reared by the "community".
Northy does not comprehend the Biblical principle of Protestantism upon which the United States was founded. He does not understand the inherent evil in the heart of man. He thinks that man has something good within apart from Christ and is able to work within a "perfect" economic system. Man is greedy by nature and thus an economic system must recognize that the "grease" will rise to the top always unless there are constraints.  Further, when a person is converted, they still need guidance. To expect all to fit into a mold that removes individual freedom, does not work. We do what we do of a free Spirit, not a controlled group that dictates what we will do. We share because we daily make a decision to share with those in need. We are daily on a moment by moment basis led by God's Spirit.
We are to work together. The counsel we have been given is very clear. Man is worthy to be paid for his hire. An example is given in the royalties paid to Ellen White for her books. The church was not to share the income from the sales with the church. It was to go to the publishing house and the author. They would decide where they would spend the income. Ellen White instructed that one of her books was to be used to help schools. The income from the sale of Christ Object Lessons was given to Seventh-day Adventist Education. They could sell the book and keep the profit with none going to the author. That is "free enterprise" as God would have it to today. It builds character when one gives of their means to help others and to help God finish the work so that Jesus can come. There is great joy in participating in this "giving" of oneself and our means for the benefit of others.
Richard Myers
-So when you can’t defeat an idea then ignore it right...?!? How typical of Capitalists ignoring the plight of the poor.
-So you do want something other than Pure Capitalism or Communism, however only in theory and not in tangible reality.
-I understand the Biblical Principles and most importantly Christ’s high expectations and imperative. That is all I care to strive for.
-Funny how you evidently believe that even Christians must be subjugated to the failings of fallen man. As if the Christian ideal cannot triumph over these base and spurious ways.
-You claims of “losses of freedom” in my project only proof that you do not, and cannot understand it, because caring for others as Jesus taught is foreign to you and smothered by the Capitalistic tenet of doing what you please irrespective of how it affects others.
Interesting how you are willing to “give of your means” but not the more costly “self” as Jesus taught. So it is no surprise that, as Capitalism dictates, when there are no spare means then charitable contribution and aid ceases, and all that so Capitalist can effectively chase their own tails to reach the increasingly higher prices that they themselves are whimsically setting. One indeed has to check their rational and humanitarian heart at the door to espouse Capitalism.
[Quote]Your blindness is astonishing and the treatment you are giving those with whom you disagree is very telling of the character behind the project. Oh no, Northy, I will not cease praying for you just as I pray for myself. May God, in His mercy, look tenderly toward you.[/quote]
Looks like you would have really hated Nehemiah (Neh 13:25), among many others in the Bible and Church History, (or probably also “prayed” for him so he can conform to your god.)
and like I said Sybil:
[quote]you can take this however it will self-justify you[/quote]
I know I don’t need your Capitalistically-derived prayers. I am trying to serve God with my humanitarians plans, you all are defending “Mammon” and an indifferent “Live and Let Die” attitude.
And by the way, look back on this thread and you will see that it was you all who, instead of responding to my view substantively started to attack me personally and all that because I factually decried your economic system as unbiblical, morally bankrupt, spurious and worthless.
Wally
[quote] You've gone too far, Northy.  To presume to pass judgment on someone regarding to whom they are praying is to presume to have omniscience.  That borders on blasphemy, pure and simple.[/quote]
Anyone who defends the evil system of Capitalism is not speaking for God and is opposing the Gospel of Christ. That is a biblical fact and why I do not need those vain prayers, which evidently are prayers to ‘seek make me change my Biblical View to conform to your worldly one.’
[quote]We're still waiting for Biblical support for your view.  Stalemate?[/quote]
No, CHECK for me for now!! The CHECKMATE will come soon! Just review the my posts here and you have some of my Biblical Supports, i.e., all of those passages that you all are just obliviously ignoring to uphold your single misconstrued verse. Of course there’s much more that I have said to support my view but these are ‘somewhere else on the internet.’
[quote]You haven't addressed the point that was made earlier about Jesus and His apostles, and how they related to the cultures and governments in which they lived.  They made no attempt to remove themselves from society.  They could have saved themselves a lot of trouble by doing so, thus avoiding the persecution and martyrdom.  Show me the text that counsels us to build exclusive utopian "Christian" societies apart from the rest of the world.[/quote]
Of course not. You all need to fixate on a red-herring argument that I just want to separate from other for solely utopian purposes. I know I started working on this endeavor by seeking to help all those in need (i.e., those dying from preventable and curable causes, including murdered infants) The NJK Project is where I have ended up as a strict pragmatic, societal, economical and geo-political necessity to be able to reach this humanitarian goal. Pull out a sheet of paper and just pretend to seek to help all those in need and see where you end up. When you then have done what is right here in seeking to do this aid, you’ll then shockingly see how many texts in the Bible confirm these godly actions. Spiritual things are indeed spiritually discerned.
[quote]It cannot be successful because of man's sinful nature.[/quote]
Evidently you know I am focusing on Christians for this project. SO they too cannot do what the Bible teaches and live according to God’s ways. So God is going to suddenly force them to be able to do this when He returns. Reread the Bible and the SOP and see how unbiblical your understanding is here.             
[quote]And it also cannot fulfill the gospel mission given to us by the Lord.[/quote]
I can only logically assume here, and also as not to give any honor to your vacuously mindless statement, that you have not even read the gospel here because this humanitarian mandate is clearly and explicitly stated. You are verbally expressing the same excuses that the Jews in Christ’s day manifest. And this is why they did not understand the Gospel.
colporteur
[quote] You talk to the brethren like someone who disdains them and looks down upon them as ignorant dwarfs because they disagree with you, apparently unanimously or nearly so. A legend in one's own mind is a dangerous mind set.[/quote]
You are accurately right here. I don’t babysit Adventists. You all are just a victim of your cherished dysfunction and inner-denominational, competitive sectarianism. Let it be as you Capitalistically prefer. I am not at all surprised nor impressed by your ‘unanimousness’. I would be shocked of the contrary.
[quote] Since you are clearly stating that you are wasting your time here what is your purpose ?
 Your wasting your time here is one area we all seem to agree on. You seem to have plenty of time to fritter away here frothing and insulting the brethren rather than  explaining yourself. Anything you wish not to answer you use the excuse "I don't have time to waste here." You must have or else you would be elsewhere.[/quote]
Like usually you need to pul things out of context to self-justify yourself. Restating here what I have already posted and explained in detail elsewhere is indeed what I do not have time for. Deal with this fact. I am only answering your mindlessness here, just for this published/public  record and for the sake of truth. Not trying at all to convince any of you. You are mentally and (assumedly) spiritually grown enough to decide what you want to consider as a Biblical Truth.
And if my post contain some typos, it is precisely because I cannot afford to spend time proofreading it. (Just in case, the occurrence of these made you feel ‘sorry for’ or ‘superior to’ me and think that ‘I must need prayer’ or ‘am embarrassing myself’)
I am also taking some time to address your objections that I may not have addressed elsewhere as I can then refer other people who may later have the same objections to this discussion, especially since they are not afraid or threatened by this freedom of information and ideas.
[quote]Your fowl attitude  reveals that you don't really care about people but are hotly venting against government and all people who disagree with you and at the same time exalting self.[/quote]
I indeed have no sympathy or empathy for [u]anyone[/u] or [u]any institution[/u] “brethren”/denominational or not that allows, condones, facilitates and/or is indifferent to the needs, even vitals needs, of billions of people. And on this ground I am squarely backed by the Bible and Jesus Christ Himself. Deal with this Gospel Truth.
[quote]An attempt to resurrect a theocracy in the days like that of Noah, is nearly a fruitless mission. You have obviously made that your mission and burden.[/quote]
[quote]To attempt to persuade Caeasar or to vote him out of office is foolishness.[/quote]
Obviously by your view, not even among ‘(SDA) Christians impatiently awaiting translation’ If I wanted to seek to accomplish this Gospel mandate through civil powers, then you would have a partial point here, and I certainly would already have entered politics. But that is far from my view. Like in Gideon’s story, I am only looking for, and needing, a few men who wholly understand and embody the vital Cause at hand.
[quote]Time is too short and attempting to reform or over throw the "captialist" goverment is not a wise investment of time. We are called to redeem the little bit of time we have left. If you had any idea as to the death grip the papacy has on this country you would not even go where you go. The magic cure is not socialism, it is the second coming of Jesus Christ![/quote]
Typically SDA view here. [i]Biblical Alert[/i]: God the Almighty will make “Time” last as long as the work He intends to have fully accomplished on this earth in the GC context is properly and completely done. (E.g., Rev 7:1-3). Of course you would have to read what I have posted elsewhere on the internet to get more Biblical details here.
[quote]Why not hasten that government ?[/quote]
Oh trust me, I am as Christ envisioned it as seen in the Gospels. It is currently, primarily SDA’s with also a “Capitalism is Biblical view” and ‘anything but God’s mandate’ who have slowed this down.
[quote]You can try to fix the Yugo or you can hasten the coming of the Cadilllac.[/quote]
Both spiritually/analogically and literally speaking, I am neither working on a Yugo or a Cadillac, instead working on... . (Well I legally can’t disclose that right now), although I spiritually/analogically-speaking I already have with my project (Apparently I also can’t say that project’s actual name on this forum!?)
Colporteur
[quote]So, if a person were to have more to begin with when we start over in your utopia than the alotted amount and if he worked hard all his life to earn it, you would take away the "extra" amount, correct? Let's say the alotted amount is $50,000. A man has earned through blood, sweat, and tears; a man who has tithed all his life and given to the poor and orphaned,  a man who has already paid a fortune in taxes, has earned and saved $100,000. You would take $50,000 away and give it to one who has not earned anything. Correct ?[/quote]
Uhhh.... as I clearly explained somewhere else on the internet your complete work. My project fully follows the Biblical example and model of the NT Church (Acts 4:32-5:11).
                       
September 22, 2010  
Colporteur                                                      
[quote author=colporteur link=topic=4469.msg119540#msg119540 date=1285112070]I do not consider it babysitting not to insult people. Your tone totally discredits anything you say. I always thought I was hard but I don't think I hold a candle to your crude insultive language.[/quote]
Solely, surfacely and non-spiritually-speaking, fair enough Colporteur, Although I do not consider myself to be ‘insultive’. I am merely stating things as they spiritually are, especially in dealing with SDA who should know better. I can refer to a Biblical exposition of mine which would probably provide the pertinent overall, biblical context for this but I can’t refer/link to it, and won’t (even summarily, as it would be out of context) restate it here.
(Seems to me that this ban of referral to other pertinent web link is “capitalitically” and also quasi-tyrannically, ala Soviet-style communism such as, presently Cuba and North Korea) to keep the focus and interest on remnant-online.com. I do not see this ban in other SDA Forums. Actual truth should not be afraid of any challenges as it should be able to aptly address and disprove them!)
[quote author=colporteur link=topic=4469.msg119540#msg119540 date=1285112070]
Please show me where Jesus refered to the thoughts of another as mindless, ignorant, etc.. He treated people with respect even when they were wrong.[/quote]
Easy... Matthew 23:1-36|Mark 12:38-40|Luke 20:45-47; John 8:39-59, etc (cf. e.g. John 3:10).
If you look up the word translated as “fool” in Matt 23:17 it is from the Greek “moros” from which the English term “moron” comes from. As seen in its many uses in the Bible, (including the Septuagint) this is ‘a person who, when faced with two tough choices, (in this present case. God’s full and self-sacrificing Biblical socio-economic ways vs. Capitalism), mindlessly, indifferent and self-centeredly chooses the path of less sacrifice, demand and obligation. Quite interestingly enough this is the very word which Christ said in Matt 5:22 could result in hell fire judgement. Exegetically speaking, he meant “without cause/justification”. As Capitalism is squarely against the Bible and evil, anyone preferring to let people die so that it can be sustained, rather than walk in God’s ways, self-merit to be recognized as a “moron” indeed both spiritually and literally.
And even if this was the applicable case here:
“Every controversy, every reproach, every slander, will be God's means of provoking inquiry and awakening minds that otherwise would slumber.”  {5T 453.1}
[quote author=colporteur link=topic=4469.msg119540#msg119540 date=1285112070] No one here but you is pushing government of any kind. I do not get involved with the government. When Jesus walked the earth He had almost nothing to do with government.[/quote]
I am also not “pushing government” per se. Just have reasoned out the fairest and most effective way to organize a population of potentially 65,000,000 new people per year all the while seeking to uphold Biblical principles lest an America Jr, with its increasingly paganized “freedoms” be recreated. However, ultimately it will be, and even as in Israel’s theocracy, “the People” who decide if they want to live according to all of God’s ways. God only punished Israel because they while they wanted to live according to the pagan practices of the nations around them, they insisted on being called God’s people thus misrepresenting him. So since the effectively were “under God’s roof” He was fully entitled to discipline them. They easily could have chosen to be fully pagans and then God would not have bothered with them. Indeed there is full freedom of the will in God’s Theocracy, as correspondingly implemented in my project.
Interestingly enough, many people had similar objections to “government” when the SDA Church was formally organized, however there was an example and model for this with Ancient Israel. Then also, how much more for, by tangible necessity, a physical country that seeks to live fully according to God’s ways.
Again, if I was seeking to push government, just for the sake of politics, I would have joined a local party, or even started one (e.g., Christian Socialists) and be seeking to even democratically impose my views on the unwilling rest of the people in my country. It may self-justify you to think that I am in this purely for “political” and “government” reasons, but I know that is the furthest thing from the truth.
[quote author=colporteur link=topic=4469.msg119540#msg119540 date=1285112070] I don't know what Christians you are working with but if you work with them as we have experienced here I would call it working not working with. The difference is dramatic.[/quote]
Fully agreed here. I sought to work with especially SDA Christians since this project was publicly released in the Spring of 2006 however, I met with the same, “moronic” ‘Capitalism is good, so let people continue to needlessly suffer and die’ attitude. Oddly enough, all that would be financially required of them to implement this project, according to its economic model was ca. $3000 USD per capita, and that for people from the U.S. (This total would be correspondingly less for e.g., Africa or Eastern Europe). Clearly people did not want to make any, even temporary sacrifice to realize this ministry. So I then devoted myself wholly to pursue the other projects/tasks I had which could easily fully finance this humanitarian project, how which I also knew would take much, much more time and more painstaking effort. So indeed I am currently not seeking, nor even working with Christians, but working on the financing where I will then corporately higher absolutely anyone who will meet my then surfacely common, though not unbiblical/illegal corporate policies in having this project established. I figure this “secular hiring” will be needing for ca. 20-24 years until the first generation of up to 65,000,000 infants who have been literally saved from death will have grown and been educated to then care for themselves and freely choose to live according to these Biblical principles, especially as this is the only reason why they were not murdered some 20-24 years before all in the, ala Molech, name of the Chief-god Capitalistic economy and its socio-economic implications.
Indeed I am not concerned to work with Christians or have them or others work for me. Saving the very lives of people in need is my paramount concern. And even should the vilest of pagan answer a hiring call, should he violate “corporate policies” then they’ll simply be fired. So if they want to retain this job, they’ll have to conform, while “at work” to the Biblical “company” i.e., ministry goals that I am seeking to accomplish.
Colporteur
                                   
[quote author=colporteur link=topic=4469.msg119541#msg119541 date=1285112294]
I don't think you know my work or understand it.[/quote]
Sorry for the misunderstanding here. I did not mean “work” at all. What I meant to write was: ‘... you are completely wrong.’ (Sometimes my finger writes something completely different than what I was thinking.) I also did literature evangelism in Toronto Canada for a summer while studying at Andrews.
[quote author=colporteur link=topic=4469.msg119541#msg119541 date=1285112294] If you were following Acts 4-5 you would not be in favor of forcing people to have all things in common. That was a choice not a forced behavior. If you are simply encouraging that behavior more power to you. If you are advocating force then you are following in the footsteps of Rome.[/quote]
Indeed that none forcing is what I am following on my project as detailed there. Thanks for the corresponding encouragement. The only require is to share in the building expenses (ca. $3,000 US). However as shown by me ‘elsewhere on the internet’ due to the economic advantage that my project will give to all citizens, profits made from the non-use and investing of personal property must be returned to the facilitating project. Else many people who feign interest and obtain residence for e.g., 10 years, just to get this financial advantage. The project will also facilitate the management, investing and up keeping of retained personal property, e.g., such as a house. Much more is indeed said about this ‘elsewhere on the internet’. Funny how you all prefer to speculate about my actual views rather than see for yourself what I have said ‘elsewhere on the internet’ as if reading that material would cast a spell on you. The only “consequence” for reading what I have said ‘elsewhere on the internet’ would be that you will concretely see for yourselves why I know Capitalism to be unbiblical and correspondingly also why I understand God’s expected wider Gospel mandate for His people. So I can only assume that you all just don’t want to have your cherished viewed concretely disproven so evidently ‘sticking one’s head in the sand is the easiest way to accomplish this?!?’
[quote author=Sybil link=topic=4469.msg119543#msg119543 date=1285116670]
This little paragraph shows us what IS and what IS NOT our work for the present time.
[color=blue]The Lord has marked out our way of working. As a people we are not to imitate and fall in with Salvation Army methods. This is not the work that the Lord has given us to do. Neither is it our work to condemn them and speak harsh words against them. There are precious, self-sacrificing souls in the Salvation Army. We are to treat them kindly. There are in the Army honest souls, who are sincerely serving the Lord and who will see greater light, advancing to the acceptance of all truth. The Salvation Army workers are trying to save the neglected, downtrodden ones. Discourage them not. Let them do that class of work by their own methods and in their own way. But the Lord has plainly pointed out the work that Seventh-day Adventists are to do. Camp meetings and tent meetings are to be held. The truth for this time is to be proclaimed. A decided testimony is to be borne. And the discourses are to be so simple that children can understand them.  {8T 184.3} [/color][/quote]
Interesting quote here, however, as with any Biblical and SOP study context is key and not a lone isolated passage (a.k.a. proof-texting) Clearly as seen in e.g., the compilation book [i]Welfare Ministry[/I] pp.28-65ff ; EGW was fully in favor of working to meet the needs of the poor, so clearly this was not the intent of her “cautioning counsel” here. Indeed just by your isolated text here you would have to outrightly condemn “medical missionary work” for she squarely, even derogatively, equates with the “humanitarian work” work of the Salvation Army. (p. 183) Indeed might as well shut down ADRA. As EGW clearly says not to make her writings, but Scripture, our final authority, but as Jesus’ own, even “end-time” counsel in the Gospel is clear and unequivocal (e.g., Matt 25:31-46), I would solely on that alone consider this not be the our final authority, however in reading the context, I see that this was not her actual meaning, and it was probably imperfectly, perhaps even upsetly, stated by her. I see her counsel as not engaging in seeking to obtain salvation through/because of humanitarian work as the Salvation army does. I personally saw my previously non-religious grandfather convert to and attend the Salvation army church a few months before he died of cancer, solely because they had cared for him while he was home and awaiting to die. God only knows the sincerity of his conversion. However I clearly see EGW here as cautioning against doing these works for that purpose. And I fully agree with her. Also as she says, the Church in the end will be ‘like an army with many banners.’
In my project, I will not make it any requirement that people aided also, even first, convert to our faith, however I will not let them needlessly suffer and die because they don’t, nor will I, also as cautioned here, not facilitate their sinful living, which in many ways causes their physical suffering. These are discretionary decisions that will have to be made then, but currently giving these people a benefit of the doubt, I plan for all vital needs.
Even in regards to saving aborted infant, they will have an open residency status until they are old enough to, and do, decide for themselves. Even their birthing mother, will have a right to reclaim them up through their adult/severance age, of course then first returning all ‘adoption’ and certain pregnancy and birthing funds that had been given to her.
Also as clearly explained on my project, spiritual and Biblical teaching will be a distinct but quite present part. And making simple is indeed my end goal, although not at the expense of the actual truth. I think SDA members can dedicate some more worthwhile time and effort to be even more Biblically educated, especially as this will help in their evangelism. Also this dedicated humanitarian work was probably not the ‘present truth’ for the Church then as it would require more resources than they could expend. However the Church today, easily has these resources, and as long as SDA preachers could do advertisements for the latest Ipods, Kindle ebook readers (with access to little if any SDA or even Christian books) and/or a GPS device) then they clearly show that they can and should be caring much more for, especially, the vitally needy, including aborted infants. With our advanced and mature Institutions we can now easily meet such needs.
So in short, I do not think that EGW opposes humanitarian/medical missionary work,. Just the objectives and methods used in doing them, which are not to be salvific. So, as proper Biblical and SOP studies mandate, you will need more texts, including from the Bible, to still uphold the view you want to convey with this contextually divorced “proof-text.”
[quote author=Sybil link=topic=4469.msg119543#msg119543 date=1285116670]
Maybe we can get back to the subject of World Economies and suspend so much focus on erroneous methods of helping the poor among us.[/quote]
I can see how after your assumed supporting proof text you would make this triumphant statement, but simply in itself, to think that it is worthwhile to simply talk about world economies and not even seek to see how they can be used to meet the need of those in vital need still boggles my understanding. As a global Church, the “poor among you” includes all those in such vital need in the world. Again, especially First World Christians have the various resources including knowledge to fix and overturn these vital problems, but they, including SDA are to busy lavishly pampering themselves, like building a $4,000,000 fellowship hall. Interestingly enough such a hall, as with many other such works, would cost a fraction of that cost in my project, with the same finished result. So that is why I am advancing this project. If Jesus could eternally reject people despite their devoted work for him how much more will he do this for those who currently know of the needs of others and not do all that we can to help them (Matt 25:31-46)
Richard Myers
[quote author=Richard Myers link=topic=4469.msg119546#msg119546 date=1285129498]Let us look at your statements one at a time, friend. Would you care to shed light on how you came to believe each one. It seems we are reading different messages. I am happy to address your concerns, but you are going to have to elaborate a little so I can figure out what you are saying. Maybe a quote or two to help me better understand?
[/quote]
Fair enough Richard Myers,
Here are my objection to your views in more (allowed) detailed and with quote
                       
[quote author=Richard Myers link=topic=4469.msg119517#msg119517 date=1285082052]
There is a blessing to be had in this discussion about world economic systems. Let's leave Northy's ideas for a perfect economy out and discuss capitalism and socialism since they are the two basic systems in the world. [/quote]
This is effectively a “red-herring” argument because, in a democracy, the economy is determined by the people so if it is “perfect” it is only because the people have agreed to implement perfect economic policies. Case in point, my present country, Canada, was the only western country that was not greatly affected by the 2008 economic crisis and also the only of these countries that did not have to bail out any of its financial institution as it already had a much more strict banking policy in place. In fact, because of such sound financial practices, Canada currently factually is the most economically healthy country in the world.
So my point also was not to ignore such feasible economic “perfections”, especially with Christians, and so that, as effectively meant here, two other base and corrupt systems can be merely discussed and pointlessly compared with each.
[quote author=Richard Myers link=topic=4469.msg119517#msg119517 date=1285082052]
A purely capitalistic economy is not what is being put forth by anyone here. We understand where it leads. It was not what the Jewish economy had under God's rule. What we believe is proper and a Biblical model is a "free enterprise" economy with constraints. It leaves man free to decide when, where, and how he will work. The constraints placed on this system by God was designed to keep the wealthy from ending up with all the means of production. At the end of 50 years, the land returned to the family. The parents could not throw away the inheritance of the children. And the slaves were set free. [/quote]
Since indeed Capitalism was not used in the Bible and since undiluted Capitalism is inevitably self-destructive and worldly Socialism is indeed unbiblical and oppressive, then why not seek to emulate the perfect model that is actually demonstrated in the Bible. I have nothing against engaging in whatever you can and/or want to do for work, however given the overarching requirement in Israel’s economy to come to defaulty and fully rescue those in need, this was not to be done in the oblivious ignorance of those in need. Given the complete difference between ancient Israel and our modern day world, it is hard to find a matching parallel, but for example, if the industrious woman of Prov 31:10-31 is working to meet a need in Israel, which all women could seek to do as understood and applied in the SOP (See e.g., FLB 256 and RC 173), it would “basely” be against God’s laws to continue amassing personal wealth while ignoring any poor person in Israel in “any town” (Deut 15:7-11). Indeed the sharing of wealth is a voluntary thing, and, as stated in previous post, the only wealth that is required to be proportionally shared in my project is the wealth that will be collectively obtained, and not necessarily prior wealth, however Israel was founded on this principle of proportional sharing from the crucial fundamental distribution of the land according to family sizes (Num 26:52-56). In the same way, I think we as followers of Christ should be seeking to help our “neighbors” in need, including murdered infants, and then, when all of that is done, as it actually can be when the spurious and whimisical dictates of Capitalism are not blindly obeyed, there really would not be anyone that is as grossly richer than others as we see in todays world, especially given the fact, which Capitalism has to ignore, that the world’s resources are finite and/or not that readily obtainable by all.
Also SDA should be operating Denominational financial institutions based upon Israel’s model so that Church members could get interest free mortgages and loans, with the just requirement that the money saved from e.g, not having to pay the compounding interest on a loan can be put into the evangelistic work of the Church. Many more of such examples can be given for the SDA Church as it currently stands. Indeed God’s Economic principles should tangibly be applied in the Church and not serve, as done here just for effectively mere sanctimonious theoretical exercise.         
[quote author=Richard Myers link=topic=4469.msg119517#msg119517 date=1285082052] ...Northy does not comprehend the Biblical principle of Protestantism upon which the United States was founded. He does not understand the inherent evil in the heart of man. He thinks that man has something good within apart from Christ and is able to work within a "perfect" economic system. Man is greedy by nature and thus an economic system must recognize that the "grease" will rise to the top always unless there are constraints.  Further, when a person is converted, they still need guidance. To expect all to fit into a mold that removes individual freedom, does not work. We do what we do of a free Spirit, not a controlled group that dictates what we will do. We share because we daily make a decision to share with those in need. We are daily on a moment by moment basis led by God's Spirit.[/quote]
A lack of “reward/accomplishment” can indeed be mental impediment to creativity, however my problem with this is that the Capitalist wants to strokes one base traits of selfishness, greed and love of money in other to achieve end, while it can be done through the Golden Rule principle of Jesus Christ. And that should be and is the sole motivation for a truly “born from above Believer”. So they will seek to do all that they have been blessed by God to do to not merely enrich themselves, but to help others. In this way, even when there is no monetary reward for them, or grossly excessive them, they will still faithfully do this duty. I think and know that this is what we should be encouraging Christians to do, rather then the common Capitalistic tenets.
Sure man is base and fallen in nature, however should the supposed Biblical Christian also be. Such an economic system and/or its principles cannot be imposed in any legal or Biblical way on anyone who does not want it, but the Church for many spiritual and economical reasons, should be Denominationally implementing it, especially as it was done by the NT Church who was then, (hint... hint...) under the Latter Rain refreshing of the Holy Spirit.
Interestingly enough, this Biblical imperative that is so vehemently opposed to by even SDA is synonymous with the reaction of Non-SDA Christians when they oppose our teaching on the Sabbath and condemn it as a relic of the OT with no tangible (i.e, 24 hours of rest) application today, to NT Christians. Yet there is an enduring Biblical mandate for this, as with the still valid, “perfect” economic principles of God., as seen in the example of NT Christians. Indeed today, avoiding observing the Sabbath is justified by a need to work and make money, as rejecting the tangible implementation of these Biblical socio-economic principles is also explained away, in the name of amassing personal wealth.
[quote author=Richard Myers link=topic=4469.msg119517#msg119517 date=1285082052] We are to work together. The counsel we have been given is very clear. Man is worthy to be paid for his hire. An example is given in the royalties paid to Ellen White for her books. The church was not to share the income from the sales with the church. It was to go to the publishing house and the author. They would decide where they would spend the income. Ellen White instructed that one of her books was to be used to help schools. The income from the sale of Christ Object Lessons was given to Seventh-day Adventist Education. They could sell the book and keep the profit with none going to the author. That is "free enterprise" as God would have it to today. It builds character when one gives of their means to help others and to help God finish the work so that Jesus can come. There is great joy in participating in this "giving" of oneself and our means for the benefit of others.[/quote]
Indeed nothing unbiblical here as the work was given by EGW to the work of the Church. If, on the other hand your were saying the EGW was using this money to build a mansion for herself, then she would no longer be Biblical, by ignoring the needs of the Church to amass personal wealth. So technically, that is not even “free enterprise”, especially as EGW was doing ministry work to gain this money. She saw a literature need and filled it according to her God given ability. She did not instead engage in the business of e.g., “selling and building” the then extravagantly costly bicycles, solely to make a fortune and give a little to the Church and keep the rest of it for herself to luxuriously increase her wealth. That is what is done today in what is truly/fully “free enterprise” even by Christians. The focus should instead be, as EGW did, to meet a need of the Church and/or a vital world need itself with one’s abilities, and donate the money “where it is needed”, which in EGW’s case was where she thus insisted that funds went.
Interestingly because of the Biblical and Capitalism-Free economic principles implemented in my project, what is currently costly will actually then not be, and the overall emphasis will be to help everyone enjoy life as we were meant to be, starting with vital needs.
September 22, 2010
[quote author=Richard Myers link=topic=4469.msg119563#msg119563 date=1285175227]
[quote author=Northy link=topic=4469.msg119560#msg119560 date=1285163618]
[quote author=Richard Myers link=topic=4469.msg119517#msg119517 date=1285082052]
There is a blessing to be had in this discussion about world economic systems. Let's leave Northy's ideas for a perfect economy out and discuss capitalism and socialism since they are the two basic systems in the world. [/quote]
This is effectively a “red-herring” argument because, in a democracy, the economy is determined by the people so if it is “perfect” it is only because the people have agreed to implement perfect economic policies.[/quote]
It was not an argument, but a return to the topic.[/quote]
I do not see nor get it how you want to glean from Israel’s actual God-given and ordained socio-economics, which involved much more than production, and want to stay away from discussing or applying their Biblical principles. So it effectively turns out that your reply here is itself also a red-herring.
[quote author=Richard Myers link=topic=4469.msg119517#msg119517 date=1285082052] Canada had a severe recession.  Are the banks in Canada private or owned by the state?  Sound financial practices I would think were based on free enterprise, not state owned policies as in socialism. [/quote]
I live in Canada and know it did not have a severe recession. Our dollar shot up to almost parity with US Dollar from that time. It was the talk of the industrialized world and many sought to obtain advice from them emulate its sound economic policies. Indeed seeing out Prime Minister and Finance Minister gloat about the great steadiness of the Canadian Economy in this crisis was, and still is a common occurrence. Bank are private businesses, however they are soundly regulated by the government,(since, mainly, the government (socially) guarantees account deposits up to certain amount). So among other things, there were no sub prime mortgages toxic asset investments. That is why other industrialized countries looked and called to Canada for a model and guidance from the 2008 Economic Crisis. Indeed our only related financial troubles for that Crisis was due to the losses from a sudden drop in our exports being bought by the severely downturned US economy.
[quote author=Richard Myers link=topic=4469.msg119517#msg119517 date=1285082052]
Canada does not have a socialistic economy. It is mixed.[/quote]
I never said Canada was a socialist economy. It is indeed mixed, however with sounder, democratically derived, economic policies.
[quote author=Richard Myers link=topic=4469.msg119517#msg119517 date=1285082052]
Health care is state owned and controlled and one day the system will melt just as it does in other socialistic economies.[/quote]
I personally think and know that this doomsday prognosis is preposterously laughable. Not having e.g., 40,000 people die per year due to unpayable medical costs or having a person declare bankruptcy every 30 second because of incurred medical bills, is what socialized health care vital and economically protects against. Added to that is a healthier general population which is a plus for economic stability and growth.
If you know this as a fact then I think you should be warning all industrialized country since they all have socialized medicine, in some form or the other. The new U.S. system is still not socialized medicine and not all people will be covered, unlike these other country. But this is the survival-of the-fittest mantra of the staunch capitalist. While your at it, start by repealing the Socialist Medicare and Medicaid in the U.S., indeed things that are covered under Canada’s and others Socialized Health Care. And if we should ever “melt” as you want to believe, at least there will be more people alive and in health to see it happen in our countries. HA! But of course, Capitalism is not at all concerned with such “socialistic” ideals. It would prefer that only those who could pay for these health cost for themselves see such a collapse, which was indeed occurring in the US with the above mentioned factual deaths, suffering and economic hardship. Again “adverse” things that the Capitalists needs to ignore to uphold their base dogmatic view.
[quote author=Richard Myers link=topic=4469.msg119517#msg119517 date=1285082052] We are not doing that friend. We are comparing them to the economy given Israel to see what aspects will fail and which are sound. You seem to have been missing this point.[/quote]
Since you only take from Israel and the Bible’s socio-economics what is surfacely seemingly found in Capitalism your exercise is not attempting to ascertain the Biblical ideal, but just defend Capitalism with this selective and eisogetical approach. No to mention, not speaking on applying what the Bible fully teaches. Indeed how can you, since you do not even “see” them.
[quote author=Richard Myers link=topic=4469.msg119517#msg119517 date=1285082052] A form of capitalism was used in the Bible. It was free enterprise that Israel's economy was based upon. There was not state owned and controlled business in Israel. Why do you ignore this? There was no socialism as we know it today with the state controlling the means of production. And God dictated this. Don't leave this subject, Northy. It is the point of the thread. We can learn from God what ought to be and what will not work.[/quote]
I can read and understand the Bible for myself rather than your rationalized reasoning here and see that no form of capitalism was permitted or used in Israel. Free-enterprise, was constrained to meeting vital needs in Israel. Indeed their whole system was needs based and when God, through his leaders tell you how much of a piece of land/farmland you are entitled to own, and that solely on your manifested family size, that is clearly “state-controlled” distribution of Capital. Israelites were then supposed to and obligated meet the needs of their families with this given capital and also the needs of anyone who should come in need in Israel. That latter part is far from any truly capitalistic tenets. All you want to see is a supposed freedom to make as much money as you want. That is completely against the spirit of God’s socio-economic laws. And since their was no interest, nor inflation in Israel, excessive profit could only occur through one’s handiwork. I see nor hear of such in the Bible. If kings were instructed not to amass wealth and live in luxury, then surely the everyday people were also not to do this. People in Israel, living in a land of plenty, were free to engage in producing what they could for sustenance, however, as shown in Christ teachings, and the Israel-marginalized NT Church, when the need arose, the came together to adequately meet the needs of all. Today there is such a need in both the SDA Church, as stated since 2000 by the GC with Jan Paulsen expressed 3 main goals for the Church, and also the needy world so the NT example to solve this wholly applies. Oddly enough, you only can isolatively and esiogetically-morphed, see a remote capitalistic in the Bible through ignoring current needs today.
[quote author=Richard Myers link=topic=4469.msg119517#msg119517 date=1285082052] We can learn from God what ought to be and what will not work.[/quote]
You claim to want to “learn from God” but obviously not everything He wants to teach in his word. There are many texts in the Bible that decry and warn against such a “practice.”
[quote author=Richard Myers link=topic=4469.msg119517#msg119517 date=1285082052] Socialism does not give one the freedom to decide how to run a business. It controls the means of production and divides equally between the workers no matter how much one contributes. Those who do not work eat as much as those who do. It is not Biblical, Northy.[/quote]
I know I am not defending this fallen man practice in any way. I also know that there is a much better and Biblical, socialistic alternative to this, such as publicly owned companies. The cut-throat, dog-eat-dog model that free-enterprising Capitalism today will only lead to is neither an option, or is it comparable to what was occurring in the Bible. Also take patents for examples. If companies where not “socialistically” literally “forced” after a certain number of years to give up the exclusive rights to their inventions the free-enterprise would not work at all, and initial companies like, e.g., FORD, IBM, Microsoft would be colossal mega firms, with competitors only producing small, distinctly-invented, parts here and there. That the thing with Capitalistic, what ever they do, and need to do to uphold their economy, however purely socialistic it is, is suddenly also Capitalism and somehow adds to the validity of their economic view. As I said before, if Capitalism was operated as it should be, it would really show its true colors and you would not even be claiming that the free enterprise of today is Biblical, as it would be at the root cause of persistent suffering.
[quote author=Richard Myers link=topic=4469.msg119517#msg119517 date=1285082052]
[My comments] .... Tell me where in the Bible you find a basis for a church becoming a bank?[/quote]
Just speaking the plain, factual/spiritual truth and that is Biblical
Again you need to misquote or malconstrue my statements to oppose them. Show me where I said the Church should become a bank?? What I said, based on Israel’s no-interest-among-fellow-Israelites model given by God, that the Church should be operating financial lending institutions just like they have food plants, Universities, Publishing houses, which should actually be in the direct service of the Church and its mission, as opposed to merely forming workers for the world. Also the Church would not have to build physical banks, they could leave these pooled finances in various banks, i.e., in dedicated accounts and solely administer the interest-free lending of it among Church members, and that could all be done through conference buildings and local churches. You want to emulate Israel’s economy, then seek to implement this clear Biblical model, especially as interest can still be earned from heathens and the while with savings greatly advancing the Church’s work.
[quote author=Richard Myers link=topic=4469.msg119517#msg119517 date=1285082052] You will find no argument about this. We are not talking about Christian virtue, but about a economic system that would take into consideration what God has given in Scripture. Israel is the only example we have.[/quote]
If you do not want to include Christian virtue, indeed as taught by Christ himself, in your discussion, evidently as it will sink your views then I really pity you and am shocked by such a devotion to the ‘Mammon god of money/wealth.’
[quote author=Richard Myers link=topic=4469.msg119517#msg119517 date=1285082052]
But, there are many principles in the Bible that indicate that if a man does not work, he will not eat. A free enterprise system follows this principle. [/quote]
If you want to insist on building a teaching on a single, eisogetical proof text then do go ahead and do teach that no one who is working should eat. That is all retired people who are being socialistically sustain, no matter how long they may have actually worked in the past, or else surely they would have kept this Social Security taxes for themselves and do their own saving/investing for their retirement, all unemployed people also sustained socialistically. Not to mention of course all adult or independent people on welfare, food stamps or social aid. How many people paid Jesus and his disciple for their meal in the feeding of the 5000 and then 4000 men. Indeed as the disciples pointed out then, their was not enough money to buy food for all of these people. Jesus’ answer to them of “you give them something to eat” was deliberately meant to place this faith-based responsibility for such a manifested needed upon those who knew the Truth. (Cf. DA 364-371).
It’s funny how Capitalists cry out to their government for unemployment (i.e., no jobs) why don’t they go, in their supposed so free-enterprise system, crying to company CEO’s. So typical of the capitalist... mindlessly want, and needs, to have it both ways.
[quote author=Richard Myers link=topic=4469.msg119517#msg119517 date=1285082052] Your argument is not with us, Northy. If you have a problem with the Laodicean Church, go to the Laodicea Forum and you will learn a lot about how God addresses the problems you are concerned about. It is not through an economic system, but best dealt with by following the counsel given. "Direct counsel". We are not dependent upon human reasoning to correct the church's failure. Adra has done some good work, but it is not the method God has given to reach the world. Again, go to the "Right Arm" forum if you wish to address the failures of the church to reach out to the world. There you will find quote after quote of what we are to be doing. Do not ignore this, dear brother. It is important. [/quote]
LOL. How oblivously funny! Look back on our past communications, i.e, in April of 2006 and e.g, post #37 in this thread and you will see that I had posted this post in the appropriate forum of Laodicea, it is you who moved it here and now you blame me for it seemingly being off topic. Make up your mind. Or simply seek to understand the Biblicalness of what I am saying here. No one is trying to save the world spiritual through humanitarians works. That would be creating “loaves and fishes” converts which both the Bible and SOP speak against. However meeting the vital needs of all is Christ’s expressed Gospel commission mandate as it encompasses in its implementation and practice [u]all[/u] that he has taught. And when an economic system stands, in any way, in the way of this Gospel commission then it rightly should be set aside so that God’s pure and unadulterated truth and ways can shine forth and be effective. For ‘if the foundations be destroyed, then how will the righteous live.’
September 22, 2010
[quote author=Wally link=topic=4469.msg119575#msg119575 date=1285201829]
Have you presented it before a counsel of Godly men who can study it out and render a decision?  I think not; and if you have, they have obviously rejected it.  But you push on, even though the church is not with you.  I pray you will come to your senses before you do great damage to the cause of God, and before it's too late.
[/quote]
Indeed the answer is yes and they manifestly have rejected it, although of course without a Biblical response if any. I do not mind standing alone, and like Elijah vs. the 1450 false prophets, I will indeed challenge all that oppose Biblical Truth to the end. As for me and my house we will serve the Lord. And in my case where God has guided, He has more than abundantly provided.
[quote author=Wally link=topic=4469.msg119575#msg119575 date=1285201829]
Maybe I'm the only one who can't follow your line of reasoning.[/quote]
And how would this be the case?? Transparently demonstrate the worth of your "great reading" by answering the questions below! My goal is to help all of those in vital need, How do you recommend doing this (i.e., "through an existing world economic system"), if you even care to do this.
Here are my questions to you all, and none of them are rhetorical:
What exactly is your end goal for comparing world economies? I.e., are you seeking for the best to recommend to Christians, or seeking for what would actually best serve all humans, including, rightly, all people in need? Or something else?
What do you do with NT economic principles such as, e.g.,:
‘If you have two give one’ (Luke 3:11) (and not wait till you have 70 to give 1)? Sound like a communistic principle to me.
“Be generous and ready to share” (1 Tim 6:17-19)
“Serving God and not Mammon” (Matt 6:24) I.e., wholly doing all that God requires.
Our Duty to those in need and how to best meet this mandate through an economy (Luke 10:25-37; Matt 25:31-46)
Even ‘rich people selling all and distributing it to the to fully follow Jesus (Luke 18:18-27)
‘Each person meeting the need of others according to their ability’ (2 Cor 8:7-15)
among other passage in the Bible. (Isa 58 Num 26:52-56; Deut 15:1-18, etc)
“Free-enterprise” extends to college/university studies, so how were SDA Institutions of Higher learning suppose to ever be used to “train missionaries” and not there current usage?
How would your “free-enterprise” be applicable to the clear NT socio-economic principle that ‘when there is a need to join together to meet the needs of all’ (Acts 2:44-45; 4:32-37)
[quote author=Wally link=topic=4469.msg119587#msg119587 date=1285257747]You've told me all I need to know.  Therefore I have no desire to answer your questions.  Since the brethren have seen no light in your new doctrine, then your place is not to push ahead, but wait until God provides the way to introduce it in His own good time--if it is indeed light from heaven.  But your attitude in pushing ahead and condemning those who do not agree gives evidence that you are being led by another spirit, and that your "light" is from another source.[/quote]
Interesting, self-evident cop-out reply. Not at all surprised that you have opted not to answer these questions which are independent of anything else. Obviously you just can’t answer these Biblical Imperatives. Nonetheless spoken like a first century AD Jew (Matt 21:23-27). As long as people in this world are dying from preventable cause, which a Global Church with many resources can do something significant about, I will follow the Bible’s teaching an push on.
[quote author=Wally link=topic=4469.msg119587#msg119587 date=1285257747]The work of the SDA Church is to preach the 3 angels' messages, and that appears to be lacking in your new doctrine.[/quote]                  
You’re are unequivocally, completely wrong here. And that is solely because you actually do not know what I am teaching because you have evidently not read what I have posted elsewhere on the internet. Suit yourself. Your oblivious lack of knowledge makes absolutely no difference to what I actually do know and teach. Obviously you think that the Three Angels Message is greater than the mandate of Jesus Christ. Good Luck in that self-deception of placing the Church over the Bible.
September 28, 2010