Is Capitalism Biblical and Should (SDA) Christians Be “Going Along” With It?

Mark: I agree fully with the principles laid out in the instructions you’ve quoted. In fact the project I have proposed is in accordance with these principles for its outreach ministries. I think you may have confused the project’s needed “economic platform” with its separate ministry and missions works. The project plans to have various local ministries, headquartered in the outskirts of the 4,000+ population centers of the world where 100,000 or more people live. Each of these “missions campuses” will have their own, hospitals and clinics, pharmacies, intensive farms, media ministries, etc, sized according to the actual local need. These places of ministry are called “campuses” because they will resemble a university or college campus in layout, landscape and structure. There, various outreach ministries will be able to efficiently function and provide the local community with appropriate services. See e.g., on this page: http://www.njkproject.info/njk/hc_ministry/njkmissions.html.

From these campuses, further missions to more remote regions will then become more feasible as they will now be capable of being fully and readily supported.

Now the whole purpose of the Christian cities proposed in the project is to, as stated in the introductory page of the project, provide the necessary economic platform so that these local global missions and ministries can be realized. Currently, the economic systems in which we are living simply do not allow for such financial freedom and/or for the needed time for such ministry endeavors. We are essentially imprisoned in systems where the cost of living just keeps on rising, thus always further limiting the actual humanitarian work that can be done. The social and economic platform that the NJK Project’s cities will provide will fully support these ministry outreaches. So in agreement with the instructions mentioned above, local, appropriately-sized institutions of various trades will be available where they are actually needed and also every member will have their personal needs met. The latter here (needs met) cannot realistically nor economically be accomplished if concerned members are spread hundreds and thousands of miles apart from each other, and the former (global ministry) cannot be achieved without the background work of the latter.

Furthermore, the presence of church members in local communities will then have a much more significant impact under the NJK Project’s plan, because members will now all be involved in full time ministry to others in need, instead of spending most, if not all, of their time trying to keep up with the subjective, expensive and ever increasing demands of worldly systems, as now is generally the case. If ever the church is in a position to actually attain this necessary independence and interdependence in order to fully do all of God’s works, it is now.

What you see as waste is actually not. For instance you call advertising waste. Waste to whom? Is it waste to the person who gets money for a billboard on his property? Is it waste to the person who installs that billboard? Is it waste to the person working in the store that put up the billboard? The answer of course is no. All those people use those advertising dollars to put food on the table, they might pay a tithe to their church, and they might contribute to World Vision or ADRA who are putting in water wells in Africa.

Greed is what puts money into an economy that in turn helps the poor. The only way that money cannot help the poor is to hide it in the basement. That athlete who makes $8 million a year spends that money on things made, altimately, by poor people.

While I'm the first one to decry the fact that we have moved far away from the vision put forth by Mrs. White for school industries and farms, at the same time it is also wrong to blame capitalism for the wrongs in the world today. (And those farms and industries would have to work within the framework of capitalism) After all, while paying a person in India 50 cents an hour to sew Nike shoes seems terrible that is 50 cents an hour more than he would be getting is it were not for capitalism.

Capitalism and the free enterprise system, with all it's flaws is still the best system we have on this earth. And many many companies in that system are run by God fearing committed Christians, who just happen to be fine businessmen.

Redfog

Capitalism is neutral like television. It is a system that can be used or abused. The irony about capitalism is that it thrives where people are honest and philanthropic but languishes where people are dishonest and selfish. Wasn't Carnagie, one of the greatest capitalists of all time who said it was a shame for a man to die rich.

Advertising is wasteful because its sole purpose and reason for existence is to promote a product in the eyes of potential customers and thus increase its chances of being sold in more quantity than a competitor. The facts are clear that if that money, which consumers actually pay themselves every time they purchase an item, whether they want to or not, if that money was instead given to e.g., the UN World Food Organization, ALL of the worlds hungry would have had something to put on their table. Just recently the WFO had to cut its rations to the people of Darfur by half because of shortages of funds. (http://www.theworldlink.com/articles/2006/04/29/news/news10042906.txt). Advertising is only necessary where competition exists. The jobs needed to support the advertisement industry could easily be substituted for more worthwhile occupations that the world really needs in the area of development and humanitarian work. But that is only seen as important to people who value other people highly and who are truly concerned about their well-being, and in many cases, their actual life. To be convinced that a spurious “trickle down” effect is satisfactory is beyond reconciliation with reality. Billions of people, will never receive a penny from such a system. By the way “Free Enterprise” also fully allows for one to freely work outside of the framework of capitalism. Everyone still has free choice in that area. Only one’s true value will determine the choice taken. (By the way, wells are not the solution to providing the world’s thirsty with water because, among other problems, ‘hydrologically,’ ground water is being used up at a much faster rate than it is being replenished. (See e.g., http://www.iwmi.cgiar.org/pubs/WWVisn/WSandPov.htm). A problem that will only get worst with global warming. Money would be better spent on a lasting solution).

Greed is a motivating factor for people who are greedy. This biblically sinful trait (cf. Luke 11:39-NKJV) is not dominant in the “born from above” Christian.

Why isn’t the person who is sowing Nike shoes for mainly the American market not worth an proportional income to what the shoe is actually worth? Because someone is trying to keep them in their ignorance and poverty so that they can make monster profits off their cheap labor. That is the reason they were selected in the first place. That by definition is, selfishness, exploitation, oppression and profiteering, at the very least. And that is indeed what capitalism inevitably is and leads to because gaining wealth will always be more valued than helping people.

With the western world being over 80% Christian (at least nominally), chances are that most businesses are run by Christian businessmen. Yet, as you say, look how flawed the system is. (And it is self-evident that whatever these Christians are supposedly doing is still not enough because there are still billions of people in vital need). History repeatedly reveals that just because nominal or apparent God fearing Christians espouse, practice, or endorse something by the masses, it does not automatically make it good and true. The deciding factor will always be the Bible and still not a single scripture has been given in support of the capitalism in practice today. Only human and worldly accepted reasoning can be made to support it. Fact is it does not allow for what God fully expects to be done and is therefore not Biblical and a false god that most people faithfully obey. (Matt 6:24). The economic system that is being proposed here is indeed not for everyone. It is for those who want to put into practice the principles of Christ and the rest of the Bible and accomplish the mission that God has entrusted to His people. Those who are foremost interesting in gaining wealth will never subscribe to this Biblical system. SDA Christians are not here to make a difference for God in this world and age.

Ronald, if we got rid of war and crime we would have almost $2 trillion annually to eradicate poverty and ignorance and still be able to advertise.

I agree, Darius, except for the advertising part. (cf. http://www.njkproject.info/njk/hc_security/hcsafety/zerocrime.html). The difference here is that in a free enterprise system is more realistic to generate funds from the commercial sector as people actually has significant control of their ultimate economic spending (enforceable through e.g., successive product boycotts). Unlike the fact that (1) war is funded by mandatory taxes imposed by law, by the government and (2) the eradication of crime will necessitate the ‘spiritual rebirth’ of many. Indeed, if everyone was indeed concerned on the welfare of others rather than focusing on themselves, the crime rate would significantly go down.

Advertising is needed where there is competition. If companies would unite to provide consumers with the best product available rather than trying to out do each other in order to corner a market, then it would be clear which product to buy. A many duplicate resources would also not be wasted in the multiplication of parallel companies.

Ronald good luck in your proposal for a Utopian civilization, you will need it. What you are proposing is a socialist system to the extreme, as far as I know they've never worked in the past but there is a first time for everything. Your web site sounds like sci-fi but who knows, maybe it will work, if you can figure out how to finance it.

Redfog

Redfog, maybe Ronald could "ADVERTISE"
alas, Capitalism is a healthy state if truly run in an honest manner! Do we as SDA's not advertise? (we should be advertising MORE! )
-just my 2cents worth. (great now I'm broke)

Redfog. I only use biblical ideology and criteria to judge my project and not worldly thinking and concepts. This means that (1) my proposal is not an attempt for a “Utopian civilization” but an attempt to establish a truly, “born from above (John 3:3 NRSV)” Christian Society and all that this is to result in biblically. If that will result in a “socialist system to the extreme” then that is simply what it has to be. Although I do not like the term “socialist” because it tends to refer to a system based on the desires of a group of people rather than, as the case is here, people striving to accomplish the desires of their God and ‘His will on earth’ (Matt 6:10). I also do not regard the failure of past worldly socialist systems as being relevant to this project, because these systems were not biblical.

My website may be different but it definitely is not science fiction. Structurally, it is base on proven scientific concepts. Socially and economically, it is different because the world predominantly adheres to capitalistic socioeconomics. Also residences at sea are now becoming more popular and familiar to everyday people as seen in the (large) cruise ship industry (e.g. Queen Mary II , Freedom of the Seas and the proposed ~1-mile-long Freedom Ship project). If the world had been living according to God’s standards and I came up with an economic plan where e.g., a person would be paid $250 million over ten years to chase ball around or an oil painting would sell for $35 million, among the many other examples that can be used here, then that would sound quite abnormal.

In term of “financing” I will not be using worldly norms for this project by trying to find someone, or a financial institution from which to receive a loan in order to build the proposed “Holy Cities.” The project is already fully planned be paid for, and built up, by the actual people who will be residing there. Either these people will already know the trades and professions that will be needed to physically establish these cities or they will, if capable, be trained and educated in them. In any case everyone involved in the project will in some way significantly participate in its establishment and all the expenses will be shared evenly among adults. These shared expenses are calculated to be around $2800 regardless of the size of an HC. That is because the HC’s are designed to expand only as its population increases. Therefore no one group of people will ever have to incur all of the expenses related to the building of a full-sized, complete HC.

And finally, “luck” will be a complete non-factor in this project because, as is the case with industrial/construction projects, this project is an implementation of proven science and currently feasible and used technologies. The “goodwill” of Christians is all that is needed here as the will of God to reach all who need to be reach has already been made unequivocal. This may seem like a matter of "semantics", but every does have its distinct connotation and meaning.

Ronald, not all companies make the same quality of product. Advertising goes on in nature all the time. How do you think the animals decide which to mate with? If you want customers you have to advertise to beat off the competition, and competition is good.

For capitalism to be in any form to be “healthy” poor people have to be kept in their state of misery and suffering. Let "good" capitalists set out to fully resolve all of the world’s humanitarian problems within the next year and see if even this said "good" capitalism will still “be healthy” or exist then.

I hope George W is not going to read this Anti-Capitalim thread! LOL

Well somehow I don't think GWB will be reading this, but you never know

While capitalism will always have it's poor at least all the people will not be poor because in a capitalist system you are rewarded as an individual for striving for excellence.

There will come a day when all earthly systems will be abolished and we will all be living in mansions. Until that day the free enterprise, capitalistic system, along with a representative form of government is the best we have and it goes the farthest is alleviating poverty and all that goes with it.

Redfog

Ronald,

None of the links you provided are working.

URL links: The brackets around the url links were mistakenly included as part of the url address. This can now be corrected by removing them from the browser’s address bar after clicking on them from this page, or by copy and pasting the url from here without brackets.

NJK Project’s Currency:
http://www.njkproject.info/njk/hc_economy/njkcurrency.html
Groundwater Problems:
http://www.theworldlink.com/articles/2006/04/29/news/news10042906.txt
Cuts in Darfur Food Aid:
http://www.iwmi.cgiar.org/pubs/WWVisn/WSandPov.htm
NJK Project’s Low to Absent Crime Rate:
http://www.njkproject.info/njk/hc_security/hcsafety/zerocrime.html

Sorry but I don't see a willful neglect of the poor within the SDA church or within the bigger framework of the Christian church. It seems to me that the Christian church more than any other goes out of it's way to help the poor. And governments that are founded on Christian principles seem to do more than other governments.

The very best way to help the poor is to employ them. Capitalism is the best way to spur the economy and create those jobs. Wealth creates jobs. A business owner making a million dollars a year spends his money employing people. Without that incentive of getting wealthy he would not create jobs. Wealth is not inherently anti-Christian as some would have us believe, indeed wealth is what fuels the church and helps the poor. Wealthy people have no choice but to spend their money (unless they bury it in the backyard). Even when they simply stash it in the bank it is used to fuel the economy. A wealthy person building a multi million dollar house is doing his or her part to raise the standard of living for poor people. By lowering the 10x (or whatever numbers you wish to choose) pay the wealthy recieve you would also lower they pay of those below them because those rich people would loose their incentive to push that company to do better.

Has there ever been a economic/political system where there have not been poor people? I think not.

A good example of a capitalistic system helping the poor is China. For years it suffered under a economic system that was anti-capitalistic and it's people starved, but now that it has started to embrace the free enterprise capitalistic system it is lifting it's people out of dire poverty. (And driving up the cost of oil) I'm in no way defending the China government, just it's opening up it's borders to free trade and capitalism.

Now granted I think it is possible for groups of people to operate a type of commune (for lack of a better word) where they might band together and all have the same standard of living within that group but even that would be achieved within a larger capitalistic society. For instance they might grow crops on a farm that they sell to the public. In our area we have the Amish that are somewhat of a group onto themselves that help each other put up barns and houses etc, however they still depend on a capitalistic system to survive.

There is a society where all members are pretty much equal and all work for the greater good of the group. They function as one unit for the survival of everyone (all 60,000 strong) and maybe it could be a model for a Christian group. To study this group just ask a local bee keeper for a look inside a hive.

Redfog

If one cannot see what “in reality is a willful neglect” in the response of the Church in regards to the plight of the suffering and dying, it is because the minimal and selfish criteria of capitalism are being used here in the measuring stick. While SDA and Christians contribute the most to helping those in need compared to others, they very easily could do much more in meeting the immediate vital needs of all those who are suffering and dying. What we see being done now is nothing more than token work, and the only reason that “all” is not done, is because the Christians who can do something significant (i.e., First World Christians) are “willfully” busy meeting the demands of their spurious and wasteful economic system. (The billions of pounds of food that are needlessly thrown away in western countries could easily feed hundred of millions of starving people). The SDA Church, as a united, global denomination could do so much more with the various resources that they have and/or could readily obtain. Yet it also chooses to meet capitalistic demands rather than do what should be done in order to obey the will of God in these matters of thorough humanitarian work. Thus millions of dollars and other resources are under used as they are given away to fuel the inefficient capitalistic “system.” There was a day when the name “Missionary” was by default included in the naming of Adventist Institutions of Higher Education, but that has been completely replaced as the purpose and focus of these institution has also shifted.
In the eyes of the Heavenly Intelligence, the SDA church is judged by what she could do and “by the privileges and advantages that she has had. If her spiritual experience does not correspond to the advantages that Christ, at infinite cost, has bestowed on her, if the blessings conferred have not qualified her to do the work entrusted to her, on her will be pronounced the sentence: "Found wanting." By the light bestowed, the opportunities given, will she be judged. (8T 247, par. 2). Similarly Christians in general are not judged by what they do more than “unbelievers” but if they also do all that they could do.

The story of China’s current situation after over 25 years of economic change must be fully given in order to provide a balanced view. China went from a mostly egalitarian country to one that now sees 10% of its population owning 45% of its wealth. Now previously non-existent problems of unemployment have also come to appear, and the income disparity between rural households (74 %) and urban households (26 %), and also within different regions, has also steadily increased since ca. 1978. (see e.g., in http://www.gwu.edu/~econ270/Taejoon.html
http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20050621_2.htm http://www.china-embassy.org/eng/xw/t233972.htm ).
The simple large-scale opening up of China to the more advanced goods and service offered by developed countries through foreign trade has much to do with its overall economic growth. Better tools will achieve more valuable products and at greater outputs, and this thus invite greater foreign investments. (Similarly, the Amish would be better off if they made use of modern technology). This all allows China’s tremendous (and capitalistically desired “cheaper”) manpower to be greatly used for the production of goods for foreign countries. It is not for no actual reason that China is now considered as “the factory of the world.”

God is not against wealth, (that is: selfless/unselfish, non-oppressive wealth), What capitalism emphasizes, among other things, is the “love of wealth/money” over the ‘love of others as oneself’ (Matt 22:39). That is what is the “root of all evil” as seen in the final picture provided by capitalism (cf. 1 Tim. 6:10, 11; 3:3). One’s motive behind a “generous” act is just as important as the act itself, and like it does in capitalism, it will determine the true abundance of the “act”: whether a restrained “trickle” or a truly generous aid. The billions of suffering and dying in the world today do not need a “job” right now. Within the profit making framework of capitalism, (new) industries (that would provide these jobs), just do not spring up overnight. They take years, even decades, to be established and grow. By that time hundreds of millions of people would have suffered and died. But that is quite “acceptable” for the capitalist, for everything must first and foremost be a business, and profitable opportunity. Even outwardly generous economic aid that is given to needy countries are in reality quite self-serving as they have conditional, demanding, and even blackmailing, political and strategic military strings attached to it. Not to mention probable payback dues with interest. There is the joke that says that capitalism will gladly sell you the rope with which to hang yourself, but it surely will not give it to you. That also explains all of the various lucrative sinful industries that are condoned within the borders of even the countries supposedly founded on “Christian” principles.

It is really telling that those who defend capitalism always have to, in essence and also in reality, uphold and encourage the sinful traits and lower nature of man, and advance as “good,” what the Bible clearly condemns as being evil. The whole debate here is whether capitalism is Biblical for the follower of Christ. But this question clearly has to be ignored in the defense of capitalism. One should be very suspicious of any system that must make the follower of Christ think and behave in such an ungodly way and that needs to use a spiritual counterfeit in order to “be bought” by even Christians. It clearly all seems like a carefully crafted strategy that was conceived in a boardroom meeting chaired by the Devil himself. Deception does has its purpose. It is intended to brainwash or “lull” someone to sleep so that they can consider evil as good and vice versa. In the decisive events upon Mount Carmel, the only sign that indicated who the true God was and who should be obeyed, was the fire that came down from heaven in the sight of those present. This clearly indicated that contrary to what Israel had been led to believe, Baal and his ways were not their Provider who should be followed and obeyed. That same type of sign is allude to in the book of Revelation when speaking of the validation method that the second beast uses for the image of the first beast that it has set up (Rev 13:13ff). And, as it was mentioned previously, just like Sunday keeping is a counterfeit to the Sabbath day, the unbiblical ways of capitalism are a counterfeit to the Sabbatical principles in God’s economic plan. (e.g., Isa 58; Matt 25:31-46, etc). The fact that capitalism was a creation of (Protestant) Christians and is greatly supported and propagated by them is no accident. That is specifically the “validation” the devil needed in the end times so that his detrimental plan could flourish (Rev 18).

By the way, a wealthy person building a multi-million dollar house would better help the poor by building an average house for hundreds of families. That would go much further than his trickle down capitalistic “contribution.” Think simply of the many construction jobs that would directly create. Also the world’s demand for oil as a fuel could be reduced by as much as 50%+ if simply the existing “hybrid” technologies were more widely implemented and used (not to mention the reduction in pollution and global warming emissions), but capitalism does not allow for such a rapid and revolutionary transition. The very reason why the NJK Project is seeking physical as well as political independence is to achieve full freedom from such unnecessary subjective restrictions demands of capitalism. When the people of God remain guided by the truths and principles of God, they can and will accomplish what the world or past societies have never done or thought possible. (e.g., Acts 4:34a)

There is an inspired Textbook that God’s rational human beings can read and understand. It is filled with many God-given principles and spirit led models of how people and society can “economically” cooperate and function. It is of course, God’s word: The BIBLE and that is a volume that, as the many statements in this thread show, capitalism just cannot make reference to or turn for support.

Well Ronald I obviously do not share your in your great dislike of capitalism. If you can direct me to a system that has ever worked better I'd like to see it. Throughout history other systems have come and gone, they have failed in either helping the poor or raising the standard of living for anyone, including the rich.

As far as I can tell capitalism is not shown to be Biblically wrong, indeed Christ Himself told the parable or men given money to invest and make more money. Making more money was a good thing, it is the key to capitalism. The free enterprise, capitalistic system is seen throughout the Bible as a good thing. Indeed through out Biblical times the market place is seen as good.

Yes businesses are in business to make a profit. Without profits there is no charity, no jobs, no trickle down economic etc. Profits are just about the most important thing in any business because without them there is no business.

And you will never convince me, or anyone else who has a basic understanding of economics that trickle down economics do not work. It has no choice but to work. What does not work is a system that is based on something other than profit. Without the incentive of making money there is little reason to create jobs, without profits there is no money for charity.

In your scheme you want a high tech city, high tech comes about because of the incentive of creating something to sell and make money with. Indeed the computer you are reading this on is the result of someone pushing the envelope for a profit. Very little is to achieved without a profit motive, as has been proved time after times in socialistic countries.

Even Godly Christian people are driven by the desire to make a profit, to acquire goods and yes, to give to charities. If I do not have excess money in my bank account I cannot give to the church beyond tithe and normal offerings. I can only help the poor if I have left over money after I make sure my family is cared for.

A very high percentage of the starvation in the world has nothing to do with lack of money, it has to do with a corrupt political systems and/or wars. The UN would love to feed more people but are not allowed to do so. Like you say there is plenty of food in the world to feed everyone and much of it goes to waste however just because we are Christian does not mean we can get that food to the starving, no matter how much we would wish too, no matter how much money we put into it.

Well you can respond to this if you wish but I won't be replying for awhile as I need to be gone for a few days, making a profit (not to mention using our bees to pollinate blueberries, so that the growers can make a profit)

Redfog

Where you just using the China of the cultural revolution as a positive example of a good society? I hope I missunderstood you there.

As you pointed out the capitalism we now know has its roots in christendom (not sure what the east asia or pre-european americas economic systems looked like). What I dont understand is why this would be proof that capitalism was of the devil? Why would you want to be a christian if things achived by other christians troughout history where directed by the devil (unless of course you where a devil worshiper).

I have spoken several times with a guy who has a vision about a truly socialistic community in a world where all that is based on capitalism is reduced to the history books. A society where noone works more than nesecary to produce what is consumed, where noone is boss or lord over another, where technology solves the problems that may arise in trying to achieve this. And I cant help thinking, this could be a nice place to live in, except that it neglects to account for one thing which will make it impossible to uphold. The selfishness of humans. If humans had been kind and loving and generous by nature none of the problems mentioned with the world in this thread would exist and then it would also be possible to see such a project as this work and flourish. But we live in a world where people do not ask how they best can help the helpless but in a world where they ask "whats in it for me".

Redfog,
You arguments are rather circular and the Christian ideal is also lost within this closed loop that: People must be, or remain greedy, selfish, love themselves above all, etc. I simply do not believe in that closed, all-encompassing view, which is clearly contrary to Biblical principles and do not want to condition myself to live on that level.

You would also be surprised by how much more would be done, and much faster and better by economic cooperation as many such collective accomplishments have shown. It rather seems to me that "necessity is the mother of invention" (and also improvement). If people need more powerful/performant computers, then they will "invent it" even simply out of necessity.

If my average car has a 25% efficiency performance of 6.5 miles per gallon, how much of the physics of the internal combustion process do I need to know to understand that it is not performing like an average car should. If the goal of the true Christian is indeed, to meet the needs of all those who are in need (Matt 25:31-46), then the “trickle down effect” (that only really serves to silence the conscious of the capitalist) just does not work for them! It is as simple as that.

The “parable” of the talents (1) did not say that the people who doubled their income made it through the wrongful, neglectful, oppressive means among other condemnable ways used in capitalism; (2) a “parable”, using current everyday examples, (if that was even the case) to teach a lesson (in this case: make full use of your talents in the work of God as you await his return), There are many didactic sayings of Christ that directly spell out the “economic” ideals for the Christian.

I will also need to see more biblical examples to support your ‘good throughout the Bible’ claim.

While businessmen are indeed businessmen looking out for the “bottom line.” Christian are followers of Jesus Christ looking out for the well-being of their fellow man. That is my whole problem with capitalism and its trickle down effect, it does not really care for people. Hundreds of million may needlessly die in the process and all of that is quite acceptable. What kind of ‘godly’ system is that?

The last complaints I saw from the (representative) UN was that it lacked the necessary funds to feed people and not that it was not allowed to. And really what can stop the Security Council from carrying out any mission. If a government (or an armed rebel group) is willfully starving his people then that would be reason enough to (1) forcefully deliver the needed supplies to the local people and/or (2) remove this government (or group) from “power”. You will need to show a concrete example here where this has been completely impossible.

Food waste in particular are a direct result of inefficient, more than needed production and deliveries of crops and food where they are really not needed. And that is directly caused by an unplanned food market. That is a problem today that can easily be resolved without restricting the choices that one has in everyday meals. Also technology today will easily allowed for any food to be preserved or freshly delivered anywhere in the world. Even military personnel does not starve to death even when deployed in a desolate, hostile place, but of course such a supply and logistics “expense” on poor people is not worthwhile for the capitalist.

One just needs to take a look at the detrimental fruits (both spiritually and physically) of this western capitalism and its blatant contradiction of Christian principles to see that it can only come from the cunning Enemy of Righteousness. I personally do not want to be a “nominal” Christian and blindly do everything that such Christians do, in the name of conformity, but rather strive to be a “Biblical” Christian and that strict criteria in itself comes to simply exclude many things that have historically been done and are done by Christians in general.

If this generation of even “Biblical Christians” expects to be translated to Heaven then should they not now be living in a way that is anticipatory of this “translation.” Unless they expect to be also “reprogrammed” or brainwashed when they receive their new physical bodies. Is it really that impossible for a Christian today to care about someone who is starving or dying of thirst and do all that is necessary to supply their need or is it really just a spurious economic system, and their dedication to it that will not allow them to. If that is the case, then one needs to ask if they are even Christians, and truly worshiping Christ, in the first place. It is self-evident that this was and is the end goal of the real Spirit behind capitalism in the first place.

It is almost comical to see how Capitalism has had, and is still having to, on national levels, shield and protect itself, from its inherent survival-of-the-fittest self, and that by implementing what are by definition Socialist principles. This can be seen in many Federal|State Measures, Acts and Programs such as Social Security, Antitrust Legislation, The Federal Reserve System & Interest Rate; Socialized Healthcare (e.g., Canada), Welfare, Minimum wage Laws, Labor Unions, “tax brackets”, etc. Most of these measures were not implemented out of moral principles but as Recovery (and future Preventive) actions to the smarting “pain/pleasure” events of the Stock Market Crash & Great Depression of the late ‘20s and early ‘30s. Even then it took a nearly a whole decade, and the economic impact of a (victorious) World War, to adequately recover. Without these direct socialist government provisions and interventions (in both Market and Enterprise), Capitalism would have “self-destructed” and indeed exactly in accordance to the theory and prediction of socialist philosopher Karl Marx.

Contrary to the ‘self-correcting/sustaining’ claims of capitalism, its actual ‘house-of-card’ instead needs to be continually ‘propped up’ by a “visible hand” and even that to is “profitable” and “self-serving” in the face of the crippling alternative. It must likewise be said here that all this is certainly not said as an endorsement of the (national) applications of the Communist/Socialist ideology that this world has seen for they were also self-destructive by being interlaced with traits of greed, selfishness, injustice and corruption, among other ungodliness. Evils which proved to cause their demise.

Why do you assume that biblical christians today are not caring for the dying and supplying the needs of the poor? Just becourse no marxistic commune has been created for doing so? I am thinking that when the Holy Spirit calls a person to work, there will be blessed resoults, and if the Holy Spirit does not call there will at best be modest and contradictory resoults. No scheme to make a better society not started and supported by God is highly unlikely to acctually make life better for any majority and even less for all people.

/Thomas

Thomas,

(1) Obviously there are not enough "Biblical Christians" out of 2 billion Christians worldwide. I just thought there would be. But if this is what Spirit led, "Biblical Christians" did in Apostolic times (Acts 2:44, 45; 4:32-35) then why should it be different for Biblical Christians today? This is not Marxism, this model existed and originated long before him.

(2) How would you logistically carry out an effort to meet all of these needs (within the next few years i.e., 7) as this can be done? Christians who are not Spirit led will not set out to accomplish such selfless work in behalf of others.

Redfog, The world needs much more than disbursements of money. It needs, above all the active hands on participation of the greatest factor in any advanced economy (70%+): the services of people. For that is what drives up the prices of nearly everything.

[cf. http://www.njkproject.info/njk/hc_economy/njkeconomy.html ]

==========

Subject name correciton only - Daryl

Ronald in reading over your proposal it sounds like there will have to some sort of central government to micro-manage every aspect of life, everything to what is invented and when, to the most absolute of price controls. This will require a ruling class, no? Or a dictator?

Quite frankly I just don't see how your scheme would work. Everything invented is done so in the name of profits. You talk about a high tech society but high tech is very much a capitalist endevor. The best minds do it because there is a profit to be made. Cars, computers, TV's etc etc were all invented and made better because of competition. You just can't have someone sitting in a office decree that we need a faster computer and expect to have one built without the profit/competitive aspect that is unique to capitalism. It is capitalism that has forwarded things that have brought much less suffering to this world. Modern drugs for instance would not have been invented without capitalism.

Another thing is what kind of time frame are you talking about to build these floating cities? I mean this thing is so far out there, we're talking years and years (decades) if you ask me. Should our resourses not be better used in preparing the way for the One who is coming back soon to take away all suffering? You are talking about creating a whole new society from the ground up, er water in this case. Jesus is coming back very soon, proof of this is in the news every night, I don't think there is time for a new society.

I just don't see any Biblical mandate for this sort of enterprise.

Socialism tends to make everyone equal, as in equaly poor, hungry and cold.

If the UN is short of money, which I do not believe they are, where is the best sourse of more money? Rich nations. What nations are the richest? Ones who are capatalistic. Ones who have made their wealth letting free interprise run the show.

Now granted capitalism is far from perfect. We should be putting more of our money into helping the poor, we should not sanction porn, liquor, etc. We need cleaner rivers and air etc. However if capitalism is so bad why is it that the poor of the world all are trying to move to Western countries where they can get ahead in life? And send money back home to their families?

And contrary to what I think you are saying companies can and are run by very commited Christians. Capitalism is not anti-Christian. I've owned a business that was very commited to high Christian Standards and I've worked for a billon dollar company that was and is a beacon for God in it's area

Like I said before good luck with your project, I wish you the best but I do not see how it could ever work without the support of Capitalism and a profit motive. Even then it is way out there in concept.

Take care,

Redfog

Redfog, Here are answers to the questions/issues you raised:


Resource Sharing
A central “administration” of the people that functions to meet the needs of all citizens does not by default require a “ruling class” or a “dictator.” If that were the case then, one would have to automatically consider the apostles as such (Acts 4:34). The resources that are shared by Njk citizens for the good of all are not one person’s personal property, therefore, like, and even better than, a current “free-market” economy, it will also be the general and specific preferences of every NJK citizen that will determine what is to be produced. As an example, each household can predetermine what kind and quantity of crops need to be produced in a coming growing season or year just by simply “filling out” (similarly to a weekly grocery shopping list) a sample preferred menu of various meals they would like to eat in the coming weeks (from e.g., a voluminous online recipe book). A citywide computer program will then, using also other applicable parameters, compute exactly all the resources that will be needed to fully meet all of these selective needs and determine if this is truly economically feasible, and if, for health reasons, normal/adequate calorific needs are met/kept and then request adjustments from applicable individuals/households. In this way, food wastes, along with the wastes of related production resources, will not occur. The same can go for every single item that need to be produced. Also, as it was stated earlier, “prices” in the NJK Economy will be fully determined scientifically as a true economic measure, and not a subjective one as is the case in current capitalistic and also socialist economies.


Also the Christian citizens of the NJK will naturally, and/or agreeably, have chosen to live in the most efficient way as possible and according to their actual needs, and not their frivolous wants in order that all may have an acceptable standard of living. That will mean, for example, that a household will not seek to have two or three cars as efficient, comfortable, public transportation will be widely and readily accessible to all and the NJK average 3:00 hour workday means that a single vehicle can be shared by the entire family, if need be. Other technologies like “online services” and the HC Service Rail will further decrease the need of one having to physically leave their homes to run trivial errands.


Efficiency and Inventions
All of the technologies implemented in an the NJK are strictly for reasons of efficiency and safety. Most of these technologies are significantly less demanding in terms of actual materials (and at times also, energy) the existing processes and technologies they are replacing. Therefore they would not be uneconomical in the NJK’s raw materials based economy. For example, (1) [for an HC] a drive-by-wire automobile “fueled” by a 300-mile battery pack is overall much more “efficient” in terms of materials, production, operation, maintenance and repair, durability, “recyclability”, etc, than a gasoline fueled car with heavy duty parts such as a engine block, transmission, wheel axles, exhaust system, etc. Or, (2) a magnetic convection stove is also overall much more “efficient” in terms of cooking performance, energy consumed and also fire/burn safety and prevention than a conventional electric or gas stove. But in today’s economy such technologies are highly priced based on the (subjective and “capital-istic) cumulative market replacements values that are also added to them.


In regards to the invention of products, to generalize and say that everything that has been invented was done for solely the sake of profit is quite unproven. Simply browsing through a historical book or yearbook of inventions show that many things are invented solely out of the creativity of individuals or to fulfill a need or want. Inventions that come to rise to the surface in capitalistic economies are preferably those that can be profitable and that is a direct result, and also handicap, of the system itself. Case in point, fuel cell use in energy production that is the craze of today’s automobile industry was discovered and invented way back in the 1840's. But because such factors as the environment and the efficient use of transportation fuel was not considered as being profitable to protect and achieved all of these years, it had never made to the forefront in capitalistic and thus world economies, until now, when backs are almost to the wall. The same can be said for hybrid technology which was invented in the 1960's.


Also, many people who care nothing about profits invent significant things just for the sake of efficiency, the safeguarding of the environment and/or simply for the good of others. Off the top of my head, I can think of the research scientist Jonas E. Salk who in the 1950's invented the vaccine for polio; an invention which has saved the lives of millions. Yet he did not do it for profit as he refuse to patent it or receive cash awards for it.


Achievable, further “effectiveness” and “efficiency” in products and processes, among other things will be a motivational reason for NJK developments. Furthermore, science, knowledge and the basis for most technologies is in the public domain. One would have to be lazy, willingly ignorant, or have a worshipful “I-am-not worthy-of-you” attitude and mentality to choose to remain “technologically” deprived.


In line with what I said earlier, capitalism will do anything for a profit. You sing the praises of capitalism for having developed (indirectly?) modern drugs to cure existing sickness yet it is also in the name of capitalism that millions of poor people are suffering and dying each year from these same drugs being withheld from them due to the “non-profitability” of supplying it to them. Overall even these “advances” within capitalism has really allowed many more people to suffer and die than it has actually relieved and treated.

Failure of Secular Socialism
The socialism we have seen in this world thus far has been done in a defiant, atheistic context where many evils such as greed, selfishness and oppression were pervasive and condoned. Socialism was heralded as the replacement for God and religion. I do not think it is fair to use these “unBlessed” (to say the least) models as a rule and expectation for what will be a Biblical society of “born from above” Christians. Like I said, people who remain faithful to their God will succeed where rebellious unbelievers have failed. If Biblical history means anything, God Himself will not allow them to be put to shame or fail, even if He has to directly intervene in various ways as the many accounts in the Bible of such Divine Guidance and Aid show.

“Time”, Christ’s Coming and Signs of the Times
In regards to “time” and the Second Coming of Christ, the Bible is quite clear in the fact that time will last as long as it is needs to so that the Saving and Final Testing truths of God’s Word will be absolutely clear to every single living human being on this planet. Contrary to “popular” belief, God is not preoccupied with keeping a particular date in time, but with saving as many people as possible. As Peter states, He is “not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance” (2 Pet 3:9). As obvious as it sounds, when Jesus will make His appearance in the atmosphere of this planet, it will literally be all over. All who do not know and understand His Truths then will be doomed forever and of course will not be able to change sides then. Therefore, all of the work of convincing and conversion must be fully done before He returns. Outside of the warnings giving in the rejection of Jesus Christ as Saviour (e.g., John 3:36), the strongest warning given to humanity has to do with the rejection of the Three Angels Message and the acceptance of the “Mark of the Beast” (e.g., Rev 14:9-11). Therefore, the generation of people who will live until Jesus returns, will need to hear, understand and adhere to these Messages of Revelation in order to make it through the final events. That currently is 6 billion+ people and counting and also include 4 billion+ who do not even know or accept Jesus Christ at all. It seems to me that the resources of church members today are predominantly spent being “servants of the world,” and in the “deceitfulness of riches” (Mark 4:19) rather than in wholly labouring towards the glorious triumph of Christ’s kingdom.


Also, about the “signs of the time,” it is God who is in full control of them and their ultimate fulfilment. They are not an unstoppable nor uncontrollable chain of events. What we are seeing now is just a glimpse of what could be and also the natural destruction of an aging and weary planet. (Rom 8:22). As Revelation 7:1-3 states, God is holding back the destructive four winds that should and will be unleashed on this world so that: “the servants of God may be sealed in their foreheads.” These “servants of God” are clearly not those who already know the truth, but it is those who, at that point, still do not understand these important truths. I am sure if it was God who was to do this work of teaching for us, it would have been a long time ago. The Spirit of Prophecy makes a very interesting statement concerning the passage in Rev 7:1-3 as it says:

“Had the people of God believed Him and been doers of His word, had they kept His commandments, the angel would not have come flying through heaven with the message to the four angels that were to let loose the winds that they should blow upon the earth crying, Hold, hold the four winds that they may not blow upon the earth until I have sealed the servants of God in their foreheads. But because the people are disobedient, unthankful, unholy, as were ancient Israel, time is prolonged that all may hear the last message of mercy proclaimed with a loud voice. The Lord’s work has been hindered, the sealing time delayed. Many have not heard the truth. But the lord will give them a chance to hear and be converted, and the great work of God will go forward.” (MS 15:292; cf. EW 37, 38)


As Jesus said, the signs of the times are like birth pangs (Mat 24:8; cf. Rom 8:22). But these birth pangs are not to lull us into a “wait and see” state in which we just sit back and do nothing further, but rather should cause us to do all that can and should be done more to clearly present the testing truths to this world. And as the SOP passages I quoted in my initial post indicated, these truths will have to be demonstrated to the world. How long will that take? According to the Bible, until all can knowingly make a decision for God and his Truth or against Him. What is commonly thought of as the “Gospel” is usually solely the belief that Jesus is the Son of the Living God and that He died for the sins of the world. Yet when Jesus sent out His disciples He referred to the “Gospel” as (literally) “the good news of the kingdom (of God/Heaven)” Matt 24:14; cf. 4:17; Mark 1:14, 15, and all that He has taught His followers to observe (Matt 28:19, 20). This therefore includes the many statements that Jesus made concerning the mandatory belief in Him (e.g. John 3:18) along with everything else all that is taught in the Gospels (obedience to God’s commandments, ministering to those in need, etc.). As James says, the evidence of our faith will also lead to the meeting of the needs of those we witness to. (James 2:14-18). Our Biblical mandate is to fulfill the Comprehensive Gospel commission and that implies through whichever (Godly) way needed. This has been the basis for many SDA denominational institutions used today. Still, early Adventist were even reluctant to set out to establish some of them at first (e.g., schools, foreign missions, etc). Even formal denominational organization was greatly shunned at first, yet there was a Biblical model for it in the organization of Israel and a functional and beneficial value to it in its better efficiency in carrying out the mission of the Church. Similarly, the NJK Project itself is based on the explicit Biblical model of the Apostolic church and its presence and use will greatly facilitate the ability of concerned Christians to carry out significant and thorough global Gospel Evangelistic Missions and thorough Humanitarian Work. The NJK project is simply the necessary framework that is needed in order to efficiently focus available resources towards these objectives and goals. Then will the world have the clearest testimony of the true Character of God and make a knowing decision for Him and His ways or against Him.

HC Construction
Concerning the physical building of an HC. It is purposely being planned and designed to be achieved in a 7 year time table and that is independent of the actual starting populations for each HC is designed to fully expand as it population increases. So any group of people will only have to construct an HC according to its needed size and not to the full size for its maximum population. Furthermore, every NJK citizen will also be significantly and/or actively involved in the overall construction process. Also a great deal of automation will be implemented in the manufacturing of component and overall construction process.


In terms of materials, only the parts of the cities that will make it float is considered "extra." Otherwise the development and building of the city is very much parallel to the development of a “terra firma” city. Even these “float-structures” can be seen as equivalent replacements with the efforts and costs of the urbanization of the land site (e.g., clearing trees and other removable obstacle, soil compaction, interstate highways and roads, etc). Furthermore, these structures will be made of materials, (FRP’s and glass) that mainly require silica from readily accessible, and unused sand resources. Therefore in terms of additional resources, they will not be an added burden on the world as a whole. (More information on the construction process of an HC can be found here and in subsequent pages).


I have come to this present project only by having repeatedly seen the shortcomings and inefficiency in previous (scattered) plans. For example, how can one really live economically, provide a service for, and depend on restructured denominational institutions, companies or industries for everyday goods and services that are located on average 250+ miles away from them? Or how economical would it be to e.g., grow crops for church members if they are scattered miles away from each other? The only way an enabling Biblical economy can be fully implemented and sustained is if the people of God are assembled together physically. Also the NJK project is quite capable of functioning without being dependent of capitalistic economies. Yet as no country (even an island country) is “an island” the NJK will be entering into basic trading partnership with other countries in keeping with its humanitarian and humane development mission, eventhough, according to current market values, this will be at an accepted lopsided trade imbalance for the NJK. All of these countries will also easily be capable of affording the prices of the raw materials needed to supply the various humanitarian projects and services that NJK citizens will be carrying out.

Miscellaneous
Like I am sure you know, the UN is a representative body made up of nations of the world, including rich ones. The best way for these rich nations to achieve humanitarian work is through the UN which they (1) have great input over its decisions and (2) unofficially do “run the show.” So if the UN needs more money to carry out its humanitarian work, it really needs to look to itself and particularly to the rich nations. The lack of funds for the World Food Programme, from, particularly rich western nations, was exactly the reason given in a BBC News report for the cutting of food resources to the people in the Darfur Region. The UN is not at all preventing rich nations from being more charitable, even if they would want to do this all on their own (which would in itself be quite inefficient).


You will find capitalism in all but a handful of world economies/countries today. If it was so great in itself then how come it does not work in third world countries where it is also used and many capitalistic countries have negative net migration rates. Like I have said before, other factors such as Organization, Culture, Technological Advance and Development, among other things, contribute more to the wealth of a nation than solely capitalism as a economic system. If it was not for the solid administrative, law enforcement and judicial system of the United States along with a relatively higher degree of morality, and its use of socialist practices, its capitalistic system by itself could not protected it from the corruption and mayhem, along with the lopsided capitalism, that exist in poorer (capitalistic) countries where e.g., 50-80% of the population live below the poverty line.

Christianity and Capitalism
Just because Christians make use of capitalism that does not automatically baptize it as God’s ideal. As you admit on the one hand, ‘capitalism is far from perfect.’ But if the Bible does shows us a much better, Godly model then how can capitalism not but be in opposition to God, His His Word and His desire and will for His people. There is an economic alternative that Biblical Christians can and should follow. Contrary to what you have suggested, capitalism and ‘making money by charging interest’ is not taught throughout the Bible as a default and virtuous economic principle for God’s people. Charging interest is clearly prohibited by God as a practice among His people (Exo 22:25; Lev 23:35, 36; Deut 23:19 ). Not doing so is also seen as the natural actions of the just person (Ezek. 18:8, 17) and the ‘citizen of Zion’ (Psa 15:5) as opposed to the one who commits an “abomination” (Ezek. 18:13; 22:12). It is only allowed when money is lent to “foreigners” (to Israel) i.e., an unbeliever (Deut 23:20). It is also seen as worthy when it is “gathered” to be used to help the poor (Pro 18:8). How Israel was supposed to “legally” operate ‘capitalistically’ here is practically impossible as they made no profit from lending money to their countrymen. They would have had to have many foreign borrowers to live ‘capitalistically” and that is a significant “interaction” that does not appear to have been the case. It also seems to me that Israelites were allowed to charge interest to foreign borrowers as an incentive for them to repay these loans as quickly as possible in order that Israel’s wealth was not crippled by unpaid, outstanding loans. Based on these Biblical economic principles, Christians today (or, at least, individual denominations) should be operating interest-free financial institutions for their members. Yet apparently the 80%+ of Christians in America and the First World prefer to consider their fellow brother and sisters in Christ as “unbelieving foreigner,” even denominationally. But of course, when it comes to creating wealth and reaping in profits, anything under capitalism is permissible. How widespread, “domestic” capitalism in its inevitable “survival-of-the-fittest form” ever took such a foothold in a predominantly united and devout early Christian America and western Europe in the first place is quite intriguing. Christ’s words are again indeed true here: you simply cannot love and serve God (John 14:15) and Wealth (Luke 16:13).

In closing:

Our money has not been given us that we might honor and glorify ourselves. As faithful stewards we are to use it for the honor and glory of God. Some think that only a portion of their means is the Lord's. When they have set apart a portion for religious and charitable purposes, they regard the remainder as their own, to be used as they see fit. But in this they mistake. All we possess is the Lord's, and we are accountable to Him for the use we make of it. In the use of every penny, it will be seen whether we love God supremely and our neighbor as ourselves.

Money has great value, because it can do great good. In the hands of God's children it is food for the hungry, drink for the thirsty, and clothing for the naked. It is a defense for the oppressed, and a means of help to the sick. But money is of no more value than sand, only as it is put to use in providing for the necessities of life, in blessing others, and advancing the cause of Christ.
COL 351

The oppressive, exploitative, eclectic, profiteering, etc “tenets” of capitalism do not harmonize with any Biblical teaching or principle. What is there to love in a system that values wealth and money over God and people??? Sorry but as a follower of Christ, capitalism is not for me. I rather choose to serve the LORD according to His ways. (Jos 24:14, 15; Matt 6:24)

Ronald

Ronald: "Also the Christian citizens of the NJK will naturally, and/or agreeably, have chosen to live in the most efficient way as possible and according to their actual needs, and not their frivolous wants in order that all may have an acceptable standard of living."

Question: Who will determine what a persons actual needs are? One persons needs are another's wants. I don't see where you have taken differences in people into account in you scheme. For instance one person might consider a bicycle a need where as another would consider it a frivolous want. Some consider a car necessary where as another would not. Even the most committed Christians have different wants and needs. Somehow someone, or group of someone's, is going to have to micro-manage such a place and dictate what is and is not necessary. You talk of calorie intake being a basis for food production. How do you take into consideration that everyone's calorie needs are different? One couple will want 1 child, another couple will want a half dozen. Who is to decide how many kids you have? Somehow this reminds me of George Orwell's 1984. Well I could go on and on but will spare my time and yours.

Well in any case I think you are dreaming enormously and unrealistically big, however if it's Gods will that this thing falls together then I guess I can't knock what you are doing though I still see no Biblical mandate for such a fantastic scheme.

I'm defending capitalism because in 6 thousand years I've never seen anything work better or do more to help the poor. And yes there are countries where capitalism is failing, but in all those places corruption runs rampant. It does take a strong democracy to make the free enterprise system work.

Redfog

Thankfully there is a promise that "WE SHALL BE CHANGED" this is God's changing of us, we have NO authority to create in and of ourselves a UTOPIAN nation of people, HECK we can't even create a perfect person within ourselves. I agree with you Red of all the systems that we have seen over the past Millenia capitalism does "appear" to be the better of the systems. Well I must be off I "need" to go to the store to BUY some food, nothing like supporting a Capitalistic system, eh?

When I refer to the determination of actual needs, I have in mind what is basically necessary for people to have an enjoyable, fully functional everyday life, in contrast to the unwarranted collection of various major items having, more specifically, the same function, i.e., 2 or 3 automobiles; a home with 4 regular (i.e., non-guest) bedrooms for a static household of 2 people, etc. Even in today's economies, money constraints will force this extra "expense" to be readily corrected. In regards to lesser/micro (i.e., less resource demanding) products, the NJK economy will allow for people to spend their
share of resources on whatever products their want but like “spending money” this will limit or reduce the resources they have for other products or services. The wide and free availability of skilled and professional services will also allow for a significant reduction in the repeated/wasteful production of lower quality/individual items that mainly sit useless on one’s shelf or garage 99.5% of the time (e.g., power tools; high-end vacuum cleaners; even a quality set travel bags/equipment and accessories. cf. ).

I guess I did not make it clear enough but “adequate calorific needs” are individually determined by a person’s physical makeup, just like when determining’s one’s healthy and normal Body Mass Index (BMI).
Also, the limiting of a family’s size is the furthest and most contradictory idea from the NJK objectives and goals. The freedom for families to naturally have and/or adopt as many children as they will want to is one of the fundamental pillars of the NJK project. Such a limitation is implicitly found in many economies, rich or poor, capitalist or socialist and is really the main, implicit, “fuel” for worldwide abortions. The NJK project exist so that this factor will not come to “interfere” in any citizen’s family life. The full (economic) cost for this ideal of this Project has literally been counted; and this planet has more than enough resources and space to fully support free family development for anyone. Only accepted subjective and artificial self-imposed (socioeconomic) restrictions have stood in opposition to this in the world today.

I will defend the Apostolic/Biblical Economic Model because it proved to be 100% successful among committed Christians. (Acts 4:34). Our mandate is to directly and thoroughly minister to all those in need, and not to only a few, as, hopefully, byproducts of individual selfishness, and when profits allow. (Matt 25:31-46). I do not see how an unbiblical economic system is the highest accomplishment that “born from above” Christians can ever produce.

BBD,
A text without a context is really a pretext. The “we will be changed” quote you are using (1 Cor 15:51, 52) to justify apparently that we have no responsibility to strive for the “perfection”of our Christian character is actually specifically referring to the ‘physical change of our mortal bodies to incorruptible ones’ and that in order to also be just like those who will be resurrected with new physical bodies. This is not at all speaking of what would have to be a literal ‘brainwashing.’ God has created all His creation as free moral agents for the start- free live according to His ways or to ours. Jesus Christ specifically came to this planet to set for us the perfect example for us to emulate in this earthly life and He can and will fully supply us with the enabling Power to do so. (Matt 28:18-20)

Ronald

I may have missed the answere to this question by inadeqate reading but here goes, can this society you are describeing be observed anywhere on earth today? Has this plan been started to work yet? Or is there a time plan for when it will be started? If no, why not? It would appear that the best way to silence critics would be to invite them to tour the society you are describeing.

/Thomas

Thomas,
As it is stated on my website, (see on this page), before an HC is physically built, it first needs to reach a preferred minimum starting population. So when that will happen at any of the NJK’s proposed HC locations, construction there will begin. The NJK Project is only in its first few weeks of wide public release/awareness. Further knowledge of it and its objectives will also continue to be made through various forms. Currently I am wrapping up the release of its general feasibility studies, with more detailed studies forthcoming. The main thing that counts, (for me anyway) is that it has been demonstrated that it can actually be done, particularly within its Biblical and Christian context and environment. Furthermore, when the actual goals and objectives of the project are kept in perspective that should be reason enough for one to do all the needs to be done in order to establish these various Gospel and Humanitarian ministries, supported by its needed physical, socioeconomic platform. In case someone may not be fully aware, some of the essential basic needs of world currently are for:

-over 700 million people [net] in need of clean freshwater; (1.5 billion gross)
-over 200 million people [net] starving to death (892 million gross)
-2.6 billion people lacking adequate sanitation;
-1.3 billion people needing medical aid;
-46 million babies being aborted each year;
-44 million orphans needing a normal family environment;
-1.3 billion people lacking education;
-2.8 billion people in poverty;
-4 billion people+ needing to understand the Gospel Message and,
-6 billion people+ needing to understand the Three Angels' Message.

Like the “Application” section/form of my project provides for, the NJK Project is looking for leaders and pioneers who will make this project and society tangible. People who currently are knowledgeable in a profession, trade or industry can help establish and pioneer the various similar sectors that will be implemented in the NJK.

To all the worlds problems that Ronald throws out there the problem is not capitalism. The problem is, are we, God's people, using the wealth that God has entrusted us with through capitalism to do anything about it? Are we sponsoring water projects where we politically can do so? Are we giving to ADRA and other entities that are feeding the poor? Are we volunteering our time at the local soup kitchen? Are we spreading the Gospel to the people we come in contact with on a daily basis?

Instead of putting our time and money into a future utopian society on this present earth should we not be preparing others for the ultimate utopian society on the New Earth?

Redfog

Ronald I've looked up all the texts you have listed on this thread and I've seen nothing that says we are to do what you have proposed, which is basically to start a whole new country. 50 million people joining in is indeed a grand program on a scale that has never been attempted before. Now if you were to propose little commune types, with a couple hundred or so people, sharing their wealth then yes I could think there is some merit in what you are proposing. In fact this is somewhat what churches do now, we pool our resources and build churches, schools, community services buildings etc. We also use our money to spread the Gospel. We all have our talents that we use to make the church work, but we do this within a capitalistic system.

We know that in the end we are to sell what we have to finish the work.

You state that your system would be needs based, is that not what Capitalism does? By supply and demand the needs of the people are met. Any other system would try to dictate the needs of the people. And one person's needs is another's wants, there is no getting around this fact.

If we were to start a system on such a grand scale then would not Mrs. White have seen this?

I admire you for thinking big (ok, off the scale gigantic )and planning such a thing but I just don't see a Biblical mandate (or even a suggestion) for such a project. Nor do I see anything in the Bible that says Capitalism is not Biblical, indeed in the parable of the talents there is a mandate for investing and increasing wealth (capitalism). What I do see in the Bible is guidance for individuals to wisely use the money they are given within a Capitalistic system. Those who God has blessed with wealth are to give to the poor. Now an argument could be easily made that those of us that are in a Capitalistic system have abused it and wasted our wealth, and that would be true, but that is not because the system is necessarily bad, it's because individuals have failed in their personal lives.

Redfog

Redfog, capitalism will always, inevitably lead to the entrenched disparity that we are seeing now- a world of have and have not. Why can’t the 80% of Christians in the First world model a would-be perfect “Christian” capitalism. I do not at all see that God or His Word recommends, encourages or models capitalism, usury and economic individualism for His people as many texts clearly speak against these (e.g., Exo 22:25; Lev 23:35, 36; Deut 23:19; Ezek. 18:8, 13, 17; 22:12; Psa 15:5; Acts 4:32-36). Jesus also clearly teaches His followers to: “Beware, and be on your guard against every form of greed” Luke 12:15a. I would like to hear how you understand and apply these passages. Building a doctrine on a single verse (especially from the statement of a character in an illustrative parable/story no less) and interpreting all other verses that clearly say the opposite according to one’s understanding of that verse is what many people do today to support various unbiblical doctrine such as Sunday sacredness, conscious life after death and eternal torment. Christ’s parable of the talents does not at all by default recommend capitalism to His followers. For one thing, there is no indication that those who had gained more talents did so by e.g., charging interest. The actual notion of using interest to increase wealth is only given as a minimal option that the “wicked and lazy” slave (Matt. 25:26) could have used at the very least. There are many ways, (as it will also be seen in the NJK economy) that resources can be used to produce more resources without going through the money/finance route. As EGW commentary on this parable also says, various “talents” are to be used to increase ‘possessions/goods’ (vs. Matt 25:13b) i.e., various resources (COL 325-365).

I choose to make truly helping others as I would like to be helped if I was in that situation my primary focus. And many things such as the subjective values of money are seen in their spurious and futile light. People who have the good of others in mind can easily make the difference between needs and frivolous wants and will not see this as a major obstacle as you do. In life, at some point we all have to make a rational choice between various options. When one keeps the principle of Christ as their arbitrator and guide they will always come to make the Biblical choice. In capitalism, a multi-million dollar house is definitely never a need. Nor is a $70,000 automobile; or owning 11 homes/mansions in various states and countries; or a $25 million dollar salary; and the list could go on and on.

God does not compel anyone to do His will. He instead gives us many principles which we are to live by and if we follow them, then we will naturally do and live according to what He expects of us as His people. In the establishment of the SDA Church, God did not dictate to the early group of believers what doctrines to believe or what institutions and missions to undertake or accomplish. It is as they set out to do these things that He confirmed and/or guided their actions then through visions and dreams given to Ellen White, even in their prophetic interpretation, and He fully continues to operate in this way today. Through the end time event visions of EGW, God has giving us a view of the accomplishment of mission and the opposition we can expect. How we accomplish this mission has really be left up to us to do. He never told Ellen White that e.g., the Church needed satellite or shortwave media ministries but this tool has been essential in accomplishing our mission. Likewise we are called to fully help all of those who are in need (e.g., Matt 25:31-46), and the plans of the NJK have been made to accomplish this mission. Let the Remnant Church and every member truly set out today to fully accomplish what God expects of them (even at a local level) and it will be quickly seen what really has to be done so that every member can be in a position to have the time, ability and various resources to adequately support a generous, global ministry and giving a glorious witness given to over 6.5 billion people. Until everyone has made a knowing choice for or against God and His ways, His Church will be here to give it. My whole point, and the function and purpose of the NJK Project is that much more can be done with the resources that the Church currently has without having to do it according to ways of a capitalistic, money, interest/finance way or system. The various local institutions (Churches, Schools, Hospitals, etc) that the Church have established to date have cost billions of dollars and still are costing millions annually in operating costs as they are forced to meet the demands of those who control the various “capital” they need to operate. If it will help you, you can view the NJK project as a parallel control of these needed various “capitals” into the hands of the Church in order to avoid capitalistically inflated prices. And in order to legally and truly accomplish this in many areas, physical independence and an organization into a country is necessary. A comparable separation and organization had to be done in some degree for spiritual reasons by the Church for its various institutions to avoid having to obey certain worldly/secular criteria and demands. A united church, as proposed by the NJK’s free-services, raw-material based economy, pooling the services of members would have done and do the same thing and much more at a thousandth and less of this cost. The most valuable factor in any economy is by far the various service of people and that is what inflates the costs in any economy.

Ronald

Exo 22:25; Lev 23:35, 36; Deut 23:19; Ezek. 18:8, 13, 17; 22:12; Psa 15:5; Acts 4:32-36).

Ronald, of the texts above only one supports a system that resembles socialism and there is no indication that that was to be a model for the future. (Lev 23:35, 36, I believe either you posted in error or I cannot find the relevance to this discussion, or maybe I just can't find it) :-) All the rest say we should not be charging interest. mostly to the poor. They say nothing against a free enterprise system.

I never suggested that the parable of the talents was about charging interest, what I did say was that it was about investing and making a profit, which is a tenant of capitalism.

Is capitalism perfect? No far from it. But what I'm hearing you say, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that it is somehow wrong (sinful) to make a profit and those Christian business owners in a capitalistic system are somehow not following God. This I'm sure would be a major surprise to those business people who are making profits and funneling their funds and time into philanthropic deeds. A person can just as well help the poor in a capitalistic system as in any other system, and maybe more. When someone makes more than their needs they can then do good with that extra money. Helping others is not at odds with capitalism, indeed building businesses and making a profit is helping others by virtue of creating jobs. There is absolutely no better way to help our fellowman than providing him or her employment. None. Work is the most basic and meaningful way of helping the poor, (and very Biblical) with the exception of proclaiming the Good News of Jesus Christ. Businesses create businesses, profits create jobs, jobs alleviate the ravages of poverty. No other system has ever been able to do this as efficiently as the free enterprise system as far as I know.

As far as that multi million dollar house you spoke of. Lets look at that for a moment. Where did that money go? Did it evaporate into thin air? I think not. Some of it paid a $15 dollar an hour dry wall hanger who put his kids in a Christian school with that money, some paid an electrician for a year and put food on his table and a roof over his head. Some of it paid for a piece of machinery made in the Mid-West by a young man whose wife is pregnant with their first child. And that machine was used by a immigrant landscaper to plant a beautiful lawn, a lawn that will keep him employed for years to come so that he can send money to his family in Honduras. And that owner will be paying taxes on that home, taxes that will keep a school funded so that a young girl from a poor single parent home can be educated and lift herself out of poverty.

Yes for me that house would be wrong to own but it is not a waste of money. If that business person can meet his obligations to God and his family then I'm not convinced it is wrong to own it, that is between him and God. Was it wrong for Job to own 7000 sheep, 3000 camels, 1000 ox etc etc? Were those things beyond his needs? Yes! (Indeed God then doubled all those things!) Many times God blesses us way way way beyond our needs. Throughout the Bible God blessed people with much more than their needs. He is like that. I don't need a computer, but God has blessed me and seen fit that I own a computer. I don't need snow skis but God has blessed me so that I can own them. Yes maybe greed is wrong, in one sense of the word but wants are apparently not wrong nor sinful.

I once owned a company that made log swings (among other things) for front lawns. Do people need swing under a shade tree? No of course not, however people do want them and as a result of those wants our employees sent their kids to church school, academy and college, they bought houses, they fed their families and they went on mission trips to help the poor in Honduras. As a business owner I was able to help with some special needs of our church with the profits. In any other economic system I'm not convinced any of those things would have happened. I could write a book about the miracles that God performed, through our capitalistic system, for that business, (and still is), and if He did those things for us it could not be wrong.

I see much in the Bible supporting wealth, making profit and having individual businesses, which is basic to the capitalistic system. Now what would you say about Christians banding together to do what you are proposing based on the free enterprise system? A utopian society based on Christian principles within the framework of capitalism might have some merit, no?

Redfog

I found the following to be interesting though only minimally related to this thread. It is a list of new countries that people are trying to form, some serious some otherwise.



http://www.angelfire.com/nv/micronations/newcountry.html

Well Ronald I must say you are a visionary, much more so than this simple bee keeper. My vision for eliminating poverty is in the second coming of Christ, which the way things have been changing in the last 4 or 5 years could come very quickly. Long before any of our feeble plans can take place.

You ask how capitalism can help the poor countries. Well just look at India and China, they are raising their economic standards because of capitalism.

To say that when some get rich others get oppressed is not something I can subscribe to. I can think of several SDA business people who have provided good paying jobs for many in their communities. No one is getting oppressed, some are simply making more than others.

And take the example of Henry Ford. He became wealthy because he had a large part in creating a middle class of people from poor people. He did not oppress people, he brought them out of poverty by giving them jobs.

I know a man who employs about 500 people making yachts for the rich. Who is oppressed there?

Who is Bill Gates oppressing? Is he not providing thousands of jobs? Is he not giving away 100's of millions to charity? He is where he is today because of capitalism. We are using computers to discuss this because of the free enterprise system.

It is when a system is in place that pays everyone the same that people become poorer. Why? Because there is no incentive to work harder or smarter. When you give people the possibility of gaining wealth they will up their out put. They will create new products.

I'm not sure you can compare the theocracy that was Israel with any system in place today nor do I see any mandate that their system was to be a model for systems in this day and age.

In any case I think I've made my point, and you've made yours and neither of us will agree with the other. Such is life in a capitalistic world :-)

Good luck Ronald, let me know when you actually start building something, I'd like to see it.

Redfog

As it has been explained more fully before, the Bible is clear that Jesus is coming back to save people, and when individuals in the living generation will have made a knowing willful choice for or against Him and His will, then He will return (2 Pet 3:9). If He were to come simply to even eliminate poverty, then many of these same people in poverty would be found in an unsaved and condemn state. Christ has given us the clear benevolent missions we need to accomplish to fully prepare the way for His coming and that includes fully responding to the various forms and effects of poverty. Throughout the Bible, I only see Him and the apostles setting out to accomplish this through self-sacrificing, directly benevolent, all-out work and actions. If the artificial dictates and requirements capitalism cannot allow these things to be fully done, then that is just quite unfortunate for this system. Christians must obey God rather then men (Acts 5:29). Another system will have to be used in its placed, and contrary to what you believe, that does not automatically and only have to mean ‘the socialist systems that we’ve seen in our times.’ The proposed system of the NJK is unlike anything this unbelieving world has ever conceived or used. The Church will remain on this Earth until it has accomplished its mandate as God’s representatives. How long that will be entirely depends on when they fulfill their part in this Great Controversy that allows God to fully intervene. The Creator, and not man or nature, is in total control of the ultimate destiny of this planet. However man will still live through whatever consequences their destructive actions towards this ecosystem have caused and the natural effects of an aging planet- shifting, massive tectonic plates, on land and undersea, and all. Maybe if people do remain in ignorance of God’s ways and true will and Christ’s Lordship, they’ll end up fairing better in their final judgement.

Concerning China and India, it has taken over 25 and 50 years respectively for them to reach the relative level of economic growth that they currently have, yet poverty in this countries is still a major issue, especially when measured by international and standards. China extreme measure of a “one child policy” has “contributed” (no justification intended) to their economic growth as there are much less purely dependent people to take care of, and most of the population is “solvent.” Just wait until this same population group becomes senior citizens. Among other poverty indicators, democratic India, (who does not overtly have such a policy), has a GDP/capita which is over half that of China’s ($3,300 to $6,800). There is clearly still existent in our world today a major problem of suffering and needless dying affecting hundreds of millions and billion of people and to intervene and eradicate this crisis should be wholly the concern of the true follower of Christ today.

Companies do not make their profits off of their employees, they make it off the people who use/choose/depend on their particular product and/or services. Usually the more such a product or service is relatively “indispensable”, the greater will be the profit margin, e.g., gasoline. In our specialized and divided economy the exponential sum of all of these profit margins at the various level of production is what ultimately leads to the suppressing of those who do not have a share of this limited pie. They have to remain in poverty and lower class, e.g., below the poverty line, so that those who want to have more and much more than others could meet their wants. They are the ones who are being crushed by the pyramid-like scheme of capitalism. This would be far worse without the forced redistribution of wealth by governments, among other socialist interventions as mentioned before. It is not out of the ordinary that Henry Ford’s company had the effect it had in society, the automobile industry was an upstart and booming industry which needed a lot of manpower and manual labour, especially at that time. But once all of the pieces of that industrial and economic “pie” were taken, that was it for the remaining poor. Capitalism will never create industries to meet the needs of all, but solely the needs of those who can afford the cumulative and suggested prices of their various goods and services. Also, shipbuilding in general is a very manual labour demanding work. Luxury yacht building usually requires even more particular attention and labour due to the great customization included in this non-uniform process. So if a company is building yachts for the rich and wants to keep an acceptable/reasonable turnaround time (i.e., completion time) for their orders especially if they have many orders to fulfill, then it would not be out of the ordinary or ‘magnanimous’ for them to employ many workers.

Again concerning your ‘needed motivation of wealth and greed’ (which has been responded to before), you’ll have to convince an “unconverted” or an outright unbeliever with its supposed ‘indispensability’, especially in the context of a Truly Christian society. Also, correct me if I am wrong, but I have not read about or seen a socialist economy that has had a, strictly speaking, ‘“equal pay” policy right across the economic board.’ And arguably, that is really what has caused them to transition to and/or incorporate capitalism due to the unfairness and active “fault line” that the incongruity that such a mixed economic theory and application created within their system.

If the example of the people of God throughout history and how God established, instructed and guided them is not the point of reference for the Remnant’s today, then what is??? The Ancient Spartan community? Or the wealth class system of the Roman Empire? Or, better yet, that is for our advanced “day and age,” the moral and ethical judgements and values of the capitalist today? God does not need to literally and continually have to come down to a mountain top and repeat the eternal and timeless principles that He has made known in the past for every new generation of believers. This has happened at one time before in the History of His people and the instructions given then have been recorded and preserved in the Bible. Through Jesus Christ’s Advent, the Godhead set the record straight for believers in the light of the Gospel and even greatly “raised the bar.” All of these things definitely clearly speak to us today and are our unequivocal mandate. That is something the just in Ancient Israel and the Early Christian Church in particular understood quite clearly and did. And that is to be the model for the Remnant today. If such a system has not been preserved or does not exist today, it is not because the Word of God is irrelevant, passé, or even, has failed in anyway. It is because men and women have chosen to remain in its path but have followed the ungodly inclinations of their heart. I guess they’ll just have to live with the true rewards of their choices, in this age and forever. “But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord” (Jos 24:14, 15; Luke 16:13). The NJK Project will help those who want to, and/or would want to, live according to God’s ways. If the Bible’s actual truth and its many just and righteous principles and exhortations are going to be literally ignored and treated as being of no real consequence in this discussion then I guess you’ll do have to claim the “laissez faire” tenet of capitalism and its underlying theory of relativism. I guess I am just too convinced that the Bible is Truly the Final Arbitrator and Authority. (Isa 40:8; 55:8-56:2ff)

Ronald

P.S. In this media and information age, when construction starts on an HC, I will not need to personally tell you about it. You’ll surely hear about it otherwise.

Update:
Visit the NJK Project's blog at http://njkproject.blogspot.com
It presents some pertinent issues that form the basis of, and show the necessity for, this planned Global Humanitarian Mission and Ministry, both using Biblical parameters.

Currently examined topics are:
1. Book Preview: The Biblical Interpretation of Daniel's 70 Weeks (Dan 9:1-27)
2. Testimony to the Church - Part 1
3. Book Preview: God All Mighty! (Divine Foreknowledge or Divine Foreplanning?)
4. The Church Triumphant
5. Ed Reid: 7 Year Christian Mortgage
6. Text Proof - Reply to TC1 Message
7. The Ministry of David Gates
8. Daniel 11 - The Text - North vs. South
9. Our Final Test
10. The Sealing of God's People - Part 1 (Ezekiel 8)
11. The Sealing of God's People - Part 2 (Ezekiel 9)
12. The Heart of the Elijah Message (Malachi 4:5, 6)

[These topics can be discussed here]

Are you advertising something?

I do not normally allow these type of posts, however, I will make an exception in this case, as long as it doesn't affect the integrity of this thread.

What do you think Matthew 22:21 was about...
They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Sorry for the delay. I had noticed the comments made. Had to adjust my notification.

Mountain Man
This is not an "advertisement"; but an announcement of lengthy discussions that address many of the issues that were raised in this discussion thread. As I said, these related topics can be discussed here.

Daryl Fawcett
Thank You for understanding this and allowing it.

Richard
From the context of your text, Matt 22:21 is the reply of Jesus to the (attempted entrapment) question by the Pharisees of 'whether or not the Jews should be paying the poll-tax imposed upon them by the ruling Roman Empire.' I am not sure what correlation you see between this and the NJK Project. No where is the non-paying of taxes advocated. Also there is no law that restricts anyone from moving to another location on this globe, and that includes "non-claimed international areas." The UN's Law of the Seas (UNCLOS) specifies that international waters cannot be made into territorial waters by coastal states. In this sense the NJK does not plan to make the waters in which its floating cities will be located into territorial waters, although a protected 12 nautical mile limit, due to any coastal state, will be formally requested. It however, like any ocean going vessel will fully consider its "vessels" itself to be territorial.

The NJK Project is also not an attempt to evade paying taxes, if that is what you were trying to insinuate. Just as there are no "international taxes" imposed by foreign States on other sovereign States, the NJK, as a sovereign country itself, will not have any obligation to pay taxes to other States.

So is this project's aim to start commune type centers and evolve into a socialist "country"?









But "free labor" soon demoralizes the laborer even if his "basic needs" are provided.
Just look at the communist countries -- once the socialist laws were enforced the people were POOR and living in sub-standard conditions with no more motivation to work and better the conditions either for themselves or for their families and neighbors because the government just took it anyway, and their basic needs were supplied -- so why work?



The injustices come from monopolizing.
When the few get control and eliminate the opposition.
Creating a "social" government won't solve that, it simply solidifies it.

Also if millions of people didn't make "idols" out of professional atheletes they won't get paid those big bucks.





Has been done --
There are Adventist Hospitals, there were Adventist lumber camps, furniture factories, etc.
These were great for Sabbath's off was assured, and membership in labour unions was not part of it.

But everyone still got their just wages.



You expect people to work for nothing? Someone, somewhere gets all the money and gives the workers just enough to meet their basic needs. Sorry -- doesn't work -- workers lose moral and will to work.



So the people work for nothing and someone hands them just enough to meet their basic needs, and then those someones who apparently get all the money and distribute it according to their supperior wisdom is supposed to faciliate all these projects?



Buying babies?
You know where that leads? People who only get enough to meet what the "overlord" sees as their basic needs, start having babies to try to get a little more money.

Besides why would their be any expenses related to the birth since everyone is supposed to work for free?
Well -- probably because to get any REAL service one would have to go outside the commune to where people are still motivated to work?




No, socialized health care does not give BETTER care. True they may give MORE care, but not better.
In Canada, socialized health care has been good, but I believe it was good ONLY because the USA set a high standard and Canada had to offer much of the same services. If the USA goes socialist in health care -- then all the negatives will come into play with nothing to motivate to higher standards.

The long waiting lists for specialized medical care (which is very much part of Canada's socialized medical care) will become longer, the system will determine who is worthy to receive care and who is left to die.



How would education help?
If there are no "labor costs"?



There seems to be contradictions here -
Maybe I'm completely misunderstanding this but --

Firstly -- any church group and go and buy materials at the local hardware store and come together for a workbee where they all work together to get something built. That has been done since nearly forever.

But they still all need to have PAYING jobs in order to buy stuff from the hardware store, which they then donate.
These are temporary projects church members work together to achieve while still holding their own paying jobs elsewhere, it's not building a whole society.





No, I don't think I misunderstood. I does sound like you are suggesting a socialistic society. Competition and the ability to "make a profit" is eliminated. Everyone gets a portion which someone deems will be enough to meet their basic needs. And all are expected to contribute by working.

As idealistic as it may sound, socialism DOES NOT WORK. The most basic and God given freedom is destroyed.

Hello dedication. Thanks for your reply. I just noticed your response here as my email notification settings were not set right and still do not work after fixing and updating them.

You apparently read through my, at least initial post, however it does not seem that you read the follow discussion because many of the points you raise here were already addressed their. I will therefore just summarily respond to them here.
Also I analyzing my planned project you mad the typical capitalistic mistake of viewing everything, including Biblical principles through capitalistic lenses. So it is not surprising that you can only see that another socio-economic approach, even one that is based on the Biblical model, “will not work”.

Also the model/example of Soviet Style communism is not at all taken into any contribution or consideration for this project. I have come to spiritually see that it was allowed by God to serve as an object lesson of what mistakes not to make. On the flip side, the Devil has used it to scare Westerners into endorsing anything that involves socialist/communist principles which both are/were Biblical ideals.

With this said as a response foundation, here are the answers to your objections/comments/questions. (Quotes beyond a secondary depth were not re-quoted for the sake of post length so, if necessary, see the previous post for these context quotes.)



This project is to build global floating cities in international waters, organized as a unified country and which will implement Biblical socio-economic principles which are indeed (Biblically) Socialist and Communist (which, again is not synonymous with the Soviet-Style Communism of the U.S.S.R, China, North Korea, Cuba, etcs.)

One of the biggest difference with these systems will be the adoption of a equal “income” standard. For example if the country as a who is capable of producing the equivalent of a $50,000 per capita GDP, then the purchasing power/income of every person will be just that $50,000 with factual adjustments made for household sizes. And no, just having more children will not make you richer because the income adjustments will only be for the typical, scientifically reckoned consumption/need of that child given their age.


Originally Posted By: NJP
It is what men and women believe that their knowledge, innovations and services are worth to others. This is tangibly reflected in “labor costs.” These labor cost almost always make up 70-75% of the value of a nation economy. This means that in a powerful economic engine like the United States of America, if labor costs were subtracted from its economy, its GDP/per capita value would go from its present value of $41,800 to around $10,000.




This is the perfect example of viewing things only through a capitalistic mindset, because it has been, and still is, a most important fundamental and unwritten rule of the ‘eat-or-be-eaten’ tenet of Capitalism that people are to be virtual coin machines so that if they do not get paid they cannot or should not work, share or even think. The NJK Project completely dispense with this unChristlike mindset and instead seeks to encourage a Godlike Service of Good Will mindset in people.

In more temporal aspects, work and work hours will be carefully and scientifically regulated to ensure that everyone has an equivalent work load. So with income being equalized, everyone will thus be working the same type/amount of hours for the same pay. Also the economic system is not, as Soviet Style communism was, of the State owning everything, but instead of the people, by constitutional right, having an equal share in all industries. So they will be dictating what they want to be produce and at what practical quality (vs. mere luxury). So not being productive, not sharing idea, etc will also adversely affect that malevolent (vs. benevolent) individual. Hence in entrenched motivation to utmostly perform their share and contribution to the economy as a whole.

In short the NJK Project’s economy will be like a Capitalistic publically traded company when stockholders have a share in the profits of the company. In the case of the NJK, this stock share will be equally available to everyone, in every NJK Industry, and only the Executive officers and managers who best maximize the potential of an industry will be, by vote allowed to lead these various industries. And I say industries vs. companies because one does not necessarily need e.g., 30 different computer companies in the Personal computer industry, (which in capitalistic circles eventually dwindle down to a handful of companies through mergers, (hostile) takeovers and buyouts), as the same quality of output as well as design variety can be achieved by a single company in the industry. With the NJK Companies having a more client-side suggestion/demand where the people will tell, even through knowledgeable representative and realistic virtualization, companies what they produce, and at what quality/design vs. the capitalistic trial and error, company-suggesting side approach, it will be a much more efficient economy reduce wastes to “bombing” products to literally nothing.




Monopolization is an inevitable outworking of Capitalism and it would be much more pronounced, as it occurred in the pre-1930 socialist interventions and reform days, indeed if government had not step into the economy to force private companies to share and surrender their intellectual property rights. So it actually was a “social government” that prevented monopolization in order to prevent company owner to only care about themselves and their bottom line!



Not to defend those overpaid professional athletes in any way, but they do not make their money because people idolize them. People don’t hand them money when they cross them in the street. They make most of their money because companies want to be associated with their fame. Also people generally “idolize” a sport/team in general and come by droves to sporting events. Team owners capitalize on this interest by raising prices given the demand and thus make an oodle of money. Then in turn, players clamor for their “fair” share of this pie and naturally owners have to pay them according to their on field performance thus with the most performing players getting the biggest salaries. Also through the available open market in free-agent bidding, star players are able to attract high salary offers even from their owners who may want at all cost to keep them on their team. So sports is nothing more than Capitalism at work and like usual “socialist” measures have had to be implements to keep things fair with measures such as salary caps, revenue sharing and equalization, etc. As usual capitalism needs to protect itself from its inherent survival-of-the-richest/fittest self.





How is “assured Sabbath off” and “no labour unions” comparable/equivalent to the raw-material cost only, when not freely obtainable, basis of the NJK compare to these examples you have cited?? These examples have not be done according to the full economic plans of the NJK, but more along the lines of a Capitalistic framework. Case in point, you will find that administrators in SDA Hospital have 7 figure salaries.



Again, only in Capitalistic systems, where income inequality is the foundational norm and people have been rigorously trained and conditioned to behave live virtual coin machines!




More of the same. No individual is “getting all the money”. All national income is equally/equivalently shared by all. Also these foreign aid projects are the undertaking of all NJK Citizens. I suggest you re-read, or actually read what my project is actually all about on its website and related blog, and also the follow up comments in this forum thread.

Originally Posted By: NJP
-Would-be aborted babies could be spared by being purchased for adoption through legal means from willing mothers who would also not incur any debt from the expenses related to the pregnancy and birth of the child.




Indeed “buying babies”. In this bloody war against abortion one has to fight fire with fire and as abortions are fueled by economic factors, it has to be directly tackled to win this battle.

Given the depravity of man, some woman may seek to do this as some sort of income sort. The same risk occurs in other medical processes that pay for donations such as for blood, bone marrow, sperm, (dispensable) organ donations, surrogate mothers, hair for wigs etc. So all I can say is “more power to the woman who wants to put herself through 9 months of pregnancy, especially repeated pregnancies, as a business, however cancel this factor which will surely result in many adoptions and saved lived simply because of these depraved minority does not make any logical or vital sense. In a certain way, God has taken a similar risk in the various abilities and freedoms He has freely given to all men.

Also as stated on my webpage on this, this compensation is one a reducing payout scale for each new pregnancy by the same mother.



Fair enough question, in mindless part, however what I meant was that all of their birthing expenses would be covered by transporting them to an HC Hospital where they indeed will receive free medical services.



Whatever.... Obviously you need such oblivious circular reasoning to uphold your view. The “realness” of a Service, nor is quality is not fatality doomed to rise or fall if people are getting paid. That is again just the result of thorough Capitalistic brainwashing, where people are even suppose to die, even when there are material, technical, medical resources available to help them, and that simply because they cannot pay the whimsically associated prices. That clearly is your revered ideal, also for God’s people!?? Good Luck with that. As Jesus clearly thought, there is absolutely no approval for this mentality and practice in and from Heaven.





More of the ususal right-wing, talking points and socialized healthcare demonizing. Until recently, the United States was the only industrialized country without a form of socialized healthcare for its “working age population” i.e. ca. 24-65 and it, not surprisingly and despite its, arguably, high quality of medicine had one of the lowest life expectancies of these countries. Go figure. Furthermore countries with socialized medicine did not have the U.S. problems of ca. 35,000+ per year dying due to unobtainable/inafforable health care, nor one bankruptcy every 30 seconds due to unpayable health care debts.

Since healthcare has indeed been socialized, in some way, in the U.S. since this December 2009 post of yours, we will then be able to verify this supposed implosion!?

As Michael Moore has said in relation to his documentary on the healthcare debate, “Sicko”, there are not the same length of waiting lines in the U.S. because 50,000,000 people taken out of the lines!! So while people may have to wait slightly longer in countries where everyone has an equal right to access the healthcare system, I have not, most significantly, heard of people who have urgent medical needs dying because they had to wait. These people are correspondingly moved up the line.

Originally Posted By: NJK
-Many would receive an education and would eventually help themselves out of poverty.




First of all, as you ususally have done in your responses, you conflate the foreign aid that the NJK will do with its distinct internal economy. This given education is to non-NJK citizens who will use this freely given, through university, education to better compete in their Capitalistic environment.

In regards to the NJK, there will be an honorific dependence on people being willing to do the right thing because the believe in the cause and not for any monetary reward. Indeed just like people do not voluntarily merely join the army, especially in time of war, thus most surely risking their life, simply for the income that they army will give them, but rather because they believe in the cause that they are defending.

In the same way, NJK Citizen will be depended upon to maximize their natural, God-given talents/potential to the benefit of others and any extra/more strenuous work that they’ll need to do to educate themselves for this end will be equivalently rewarded. By each producing and giving the best of themselves the quality of life for all will be maximized.

Like the Spiritual Life, the NJK Project is founded on the godly principle of honor and righteousness vs. the basely capitalistic principles and tenets of selfish, greed, individualism, and wealth.




Misunderstanding indeed, as usual....



Sure they can, but it is usually not done, except perhaps/to some extent for e.g., Maranatha Volunteers. So Church/Schools do indeed spend millions of dollars to hire secular construction companies to do the manual labour.

Also what the NJK is planning, goes beyond the local hardware store level, to the inceptive raw material source level. So in this way prices are much further lowered.

But they still all need to have PAYING jobs in order to buy stuff from the hardware store, which they then donate.
These are temporary projects church members work together to achieve while still holding their own paying jobs elsewhere, it's not building a whole society.[/quote]



Indeed I am, even Communism, except not what you understand as Socialism which is Soviet-Style, State-Owning and production controlling Communism, with also salary inequalities. In the Biblical Socialism/Communism NJK system everyone will have the same/equivalent purchasing power based on Scientific parameters and will within themselves set their quality of life level mainly through the most costly aspect of human labour and idea contributions.



More of your capitalistically skewed misconstruing... I am really not surprised by this because that is how you have been conditioned to mindlessly think, especially as you actual life, in a Capitalistic system, comes to depend on it. Sort of a Roman Slave Gladiator mentality of ‘kill of be killed.’



Nothing worst and useless than, supposedly, an SDA who is absolutely convinced that Capitalism and its tenets are “God-endorsed” and Biblical. As stated throughout my blog, (see e.g., starting here) that is the foundation of SDAs also receiving the Mark of the Beast which is implicated in this Fuller Sabbath of God opposing System.

Has any socialism societies been successful? Why do you think a new one will be?

I heard a story given about the first Thanksgiving in America. The reason they were in such a predicament was because the colony was based on socialism. Something like, he who as greater need takes more but all contribute equally. Unfortunately, the people discovered they didn't need to contribute but still could take and the result was they almost starved to death. The colony allowed people to keep what they produced and then the colony thrived.

I too, think communism would work best and most efficiently. However, I believe that will never happen while there is sin as any time a few individuals get power, they take advantage. Which calls into question that there is no socialism, there is no communism, there is only capitalism: just there may be monopolistic capitalism that is so called socialism.

I have already addressed this quite common, “knee-jerk”, and contextually-speaking, mindless question before (see here in the “Failure of Secular Socialism” section), and also above in latest post.

The short answer is because (a) this will be a Bible-based system and not a Soviet-style and (b) because it will wholly be “born from above” Christians in this society, who will agree to live according to God’s law and principles. So they will not need the pain or pleasure shackles of Capitalism be righteous, i.e, “to do was is right”. So this is not a “new one”, as in another Worldy Socialist system, but the “Biblical one” which God Himself had established for His people.



I am sure it is a wonderful, circular Capitalist propaganda story in that, as you state above, it was because sin (greed, covetousness, lying, stealing, etc) was also present therein that it failed. Capitalism on the other hand, being the Devil’s ideal, encourages such traits and justifies it with money. So rather than encouraging people to live righteously it sanctions unrighteousness, and people blindly go along with it even hailing it as God’s ideal, especially sin we are all so naturally sinful.

By the way, think about it, anything that involves paying taxes is Socialism. E.g., Bill Gates pays millions more in taxes than the average person because of his greater wealth, however he does not get spring water in his tap, nor drive on gold-paved road. That’s purely Socialism. Even the “common Defense and government” shouldn’t be socialized. Armies should be privatized groups like Xe (formerly blackwater) and “public servants” should live off their personal wealth, thus only CEO-types would be in public office. So Democracy needs Socialism to be a fair and just society.



Logically, the solution was not that simplistic as even if they shared with other colonies, if there was enough for everyone, no one would be lacking. So in keeping what they produced, the capable colonies thrived while the less capable colonies suffered. Perhaps these others found another way in order to survive as necessity is the mother of invention. Still it is a fact that much more can be done through cooperation and “sharing” rather than by competition and individualism. That is why Capitalism forces people to “freely share” their intellectual property after some time and also do not allow corporate monopolies, which they naturally should, “forcing sharing” (misnomerly called “competition”.) Real competition is trying to take down/apart a monopoly with such government/legal assistance.



Agreed, over only in reference to Biblical Communism which seeks to meet the needs of others for the Glory of God, and not Soviet-style communism where the State was really/prominently the object of this cooperation.



Truly spirit-filled/“born from above” Christians (as the early Apostolic Church), the targeted type of people for my new country Project, should be able to live righteously even, and especially, in this life. If they cannot do they, thus violating all of God’s Commandments, then how are they fitted for Eternal Life, let alone deathless translation.



If you understand my project properly you will see that no one will have more power than someone else. As I said above in my latest post, corporately, it will all work out like having default equal shares in a public company, where managers and leaders and even production is fully democratically controlled. So no one will have unchecked power. (See also my related comments here in the “{27} NJK Organization” section).



This only shows that man prefers to live unrighteously, led by Western, mainly Protetstant Christians (including most SDAs) most Religiously upholding the Devil’s brainchild of Capitalism.



I don’t see what you understand by “so called socialism” since in the comparison with the worst extent of Capitalism as “monopolistic capitalism” (the inevitable result of Laissez-Faire Capitalism) this can only mean the worst kind of Socialism, thus the historical aberrations of Soviet-style communism. If that is indeed what you meant, then that still does not affect me, since my ideal and model is what is proposed in the Bible along with the righteousness that God’s true people, who will live in this religious economy, should have.

I take offense at you saying a knee-jerk reaction. You say, "the “Biblical one” which God Himself had established for His people". And how did that work out?

Your Utopian society sounds nice. What if someone in it decides that they no longer want to play by your rules but wants to take advantage of others. What will you do to them?

You can quibbly “take” whatever you clearly need to “take”. The sooner the better for me! Such an, indeed, “quibbling” reaction just proves my point... and guess what, now two knee-jerk reactions do not make a right (i.e., mindful and substantively valid) one!!



This is what I mean by knee-jerk, which actually is what the Bible rather calls “moronic” (Matt 23:17). God does not need to change his ways because His people prefer to live like the surrounding, pagan and heathen nations!!



Spare me the rhetorical vacuous compliments... it only helps to soothe your conscience... and it’s the Biblical Objective not “Utopia”.



Seriously... do you ever think before blurting something out???? The same thing that happens in today’s societies when e.g,. someone tries to bilk investors, or defraud the government, or cheat on their taxes, or when they choose not to go to, or not do, their work (i.e, for this latter one, the same results of being fired and not having an income to meet life’s needs). What did you think/wish: ‘summary death by drowning’?!? Who am I kidding, you probably did.

You seem rather defensive. Would that be a knee-jerk reaction?

On your site, you basically say that there is no need for security because everyone will play nice. So that is why I asked. Your response sounds like your utopian (or “quibbling”, Biblical Objective) society is much like any of today's societies. And nothing to suggest the same things that happened of old, that happens of now, will not happen to it. Fraud, corruption, taking advantage, capitalism no matter what term you mask it with, whether it's for the gain of as many who choose or just for a few who are allowed.

Oh.... I’m just quite weary of, especially, SDA Christians who just don’t get this... in the light of all of the vital damage that this spiritual mindlessness is continuing to perpetuate. So my virtual lone stance vs. the world is indeed quite defensive in order to fight off all of the rubbish that is being cast on this, factually and Spiritually, most Biblical Project; but to be “knee-jerk” you’ll have to show, by definition, that a more pensive reply would have provided a better, i.e., more Biblical, response!



Fair enough... Thinking that I would be dealing with ‘born from above’ Christians, that is indeed what I initially expected. However, through various interactions with mainly SDA, I have since shifted to provide a protection for those who will want to live like this, vs. the inevitable rotten apples. That even existed in the society that God Himself established, i.e., OT Israel. However like God’s intentions for that earthly Israel, the NJK Project will aim to live according to God’s principles, and all Biblical measures will be implemented to make sure that this will be the case. No guarantee that it will not turn into an e.g., America Jr. down the road, however I cannot defeatedly prefer to live in Babylon, instead of, like the Returnees in the time of Ezra and Nehemiah, returning to the Land of God’s Israel and rebuilding/upbuilding God earthly ideal. And currently I can think of 65,000,000 reasons a year to do so. If that statistically predominant generation of rescued infants wants to allow the socio-economic society that would have surely caused their death to sovereign reign over their lives as with today’s Capitalism, then that is freely up to them. As for me, and anyone else who wants to, I am just responsible for seeking to fully do God’s will.

Besides yourself, how many have you come across who you consider as qualifying?

And if you are saving the babies, how many do you suppose will choose to be born again, considering the assumed statistical probability regarding Cain. Or Eve, for that matter.

You're right. No guarantees. But, it would present a great opportunity for lots of devious ones. Another thought comes to mind is Jonestown. I understand it to have been planned on similar concepts. I guess that's why someone called it a commune.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but historical patterns says a lot.

The real issue is who has qualified, is qualifying themselves as the proper understanding and practice of Christ Gospel will do. And as Jesus said: “Many [indeed] have been called, but the choice ones are few.” (Matt 22:14), and that, as His preceding parable shows, because people insist on ‘wearing their own righteous’ instead of His.



As it is Biblically taught, when they are old enough, they’ll can choose to be baptized or not and then (if) later when they are adults and, as planned, if they so choose, after they have completed their free, through-Graduate School education, can choose whether to continue to live in the NJK or emigrate to another country in the world.



Spiritually and legally speaking, the won’t get very far in their devious plans, particularly in a holy and righteous society, as in many instances amongst God’s people in the Bible. When a nation decides to wholeheartedly, full live for God, He then has the default green light to step in at any needed moment and various protect His righteous people. Just ask Ananias and Sapphira. And even indirectly, God can use the prophetic gift to quash such attacks for a unrighteous few.



Well this is one of many examples that will serve as an object lesson for the NJK. And Jonestown primarily had spiritual problems caused by a misguided, if not outrightly crazy leader.



You can only wish that you are bursting my bubble. My guide and “pattern” is God’s will and ideal, and seeking to save the lives of millions is also a greatly worthy enough reason to press on towards this High calling mark. Sorry if you just want to look at the fallen and sinful world for your ideal. Why should I give you any import when God Himself has spoken (And do knee-jerkly run amok with what you surely will want to understand by that statement!)

Still my question: What if they choose not to be born again and choose not to leave NJK?

But we DO live in a fallen and sinful world and NJK will exist in a fallen and sinful world.

Well then, they’ll have to abide by the Constitutional and Lower laws that the other citizens in the NJK have knowingly agreed to live by. Just like in todays society a citizen is not permitted to live outside of the laws of a country simply because he does not want to and does not want to emigrate, so will it be in the NJK. And any act that violates the NJK laws will carry the corresponding punishment and penalties


There are many Biblical and Godly things that can be done to produce a great contrast between the “world” and God’s People. That is what God had in mind when He established Israel in the midst of surrounding pagan nation, to be the light of the world. So indeed in this same concretized intent that God established Israel will the NJK be established to fulfill this ultimate and necessary level of global and national witness to the world. (Matt 24:14).